Wouldn't it be funny if the Sergeant at Arms announced the president with a Sling Blade voice? I think that would be really funny.
Pelosi really looked good tonight, and even though I don't like her, I was touched by the recognition she received.
When Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean Jacque Wamutombo was honored, my boyfriend and I looked at each other and simultaneously exclaimed: "Who wants to sex Mutombo!" It was a very hilarious moment.
In closing, I didn't expect much from President Bush tonight. I was pleasantly surprised. The speech was one of his most enjoyable. I sensed some genuine good feeling in the House, though I know it's only a temporary thing, but I liked it. I also thought he did as good a job of explaining his foreign policy as he's ever done. Of course, as a lame duck, there's no pressure for him to persuade anyone anymore. He either succeeds or he doesn't.
And now that's over, it's time for the biggest tv event of the night: American Idol.
P.S. Oh I forgot to mention Nancy's non-stop blinking towards the end of the speech. What was up with that?
1
I too found the President's speech surprising and enjoyable. It's almost like he pulled the Party veil back from over his eyes, and saw our issues for what they are. Granted, he's a lame duck in a minority party now, but it's almost released him from being arrogantly partisan. And that has raised some hackles in his own party. Webb seemed to have a canned speech ready which didn't sufficiently react to the President's reaching out.
I think Pelosi is unaccustomed to being in the limelight of the SOTU Speaker's chair behind the president. It's been interesting to watch the eyes an mannerisms of both persons who've filled the chairs over the years. One of the first people I remember seeing was Tip O'Neill.
Posted by: will at January 24, 2007 05:53 AM (GzvlQ)
2
My God, I agree with Will! (This will last about as long as the Dems will be polite to Bush :-) I did enjoy it and thought it well done. And, as much as I hate to admit it, Pelosi did look great. She's a good-looking woman especially for her age. She seemed genuinely touched by the attention given her.
Annie, you are spot on regarding the last part of the speech: it's the best speech I've heard him give regarding foreign policy - specifically in its ability to link people, places, and events to the broader middle east and the fundamental importance of the middle east peace to our own safety.
Some of you don't watch FOX, but the best part of the event for me was when the FOX cameras (and I'm sure those of other networks) followed him as he walked out: The guy does a great job remembering people's names and engaging them in pretty specific items of importance to that individual. He's much better one-on-one than he appears on camera. I was also surprised by some of the liberal dems with whom he seems to have genuine affection.
Love they enemy?
Posted by: blu at January 24, 2007 08:41 AM (YEbpA)
3
I watched the Fox broadcast too Blu. I've seen similar stuff on C-Span, but this was the first time I've seen a broadcast network try to listen in like that. I bet Clinton and Reagan were similarly good with the small talk. I wonder what Nixon would have been like, I'm sure he hated that part of the job. LBJ would have been fun to listen to.
Posted by: annika at January 24, 2007 08:48 AM (1EshY)
4
When Bush recognized Pelosi as the first female speaker, the first thing that came to mind was, "What a gracious man he is." I've thought this before, but I think this time Bush really cemented the impression in my mind. And it goes hand-in-hand with what Blu said about Bush connecting with individuals.
Oh, and "Who wants to sex Mutombo?" leapt out at me, too. Hilarious.
Posted by: dhammett at January 24, 2007 10:16 AM (J7BEJ)
5
"I was also surprised by some of the liberal dems with whom he seems to have genuine affection."
Dude, they like him because he's helping advance their agenda while getting absolutely no credit for it from the Leftist/"moderate" public.
-He's not getting kudos from the black caucus for his African foreign aid program. Afterall, BusHitler doesn't care about black people.
-When he signs the Dems' amnesty bill, it's highly likely that 90% of these new citizens will be voting (D) in the next election cycle.
-He doesn't oppose increasing the minimum wage.
Bush was never the uber Right-wing Boogeyman that the Left and the rest of the world made him out to be.
Posted by: reagan80 at January 24, 2007 10:29 AM (qjCPY)
6
"Oh I forgot to mention Nancy's non-stop blinking towards the end of the speech. What was up with that?"
Her botox shot was wearing out...
Posted by: BobG at January 24, 2007 10:31 AM (wMOc9)
7Oh I forgot to mention Nancy's non-stop blinking towards the end of the speech. What was up with that?
I think someone farted on the podium.
Posted by: Victor at January 24, 2007 11:04 AM (WHtgF)
8
"Dude, they like him because he's helping advance their agenda while getting absolutely no credit for it from the Leftist/"moderate" public."
Maybe, R80, but I really think a lot of that is a non-political, personal connection. However, I don't know the President or these other people, so you could just as well be correct. Just my opinion based on reading body language and facial expressions.
Like you, I'm not a big fan of the President's domestic agenda.
Posted by: blu at January 24, 2007 11:57 AM (j8oa6)
9
Nancy's blinking?
It was morse code for "What do I do now?"
Posted by: shelly at January 24, 2007 03:16 PM (SLFj+)
10
I thought it was one of his best speaking efforts ever. We were laughing at the blinking and at the contrast between Dick Cheney's eyes and hers. Hillary looked like a gorgon in one shot. We also wondered what was up with all the people asking for autographs. I don't remember seeing that before.
Posted by: Joules at January 24, 2007 10:52 PM (u4CYb)
11
Mostly folks who will never see his signature on a bill of theirs, looking for more face time on TV to impress the yokels at home.
Posted by: shelly at January 25, 2007 09:01 AM (SLFj+)
Posted by: will at January 26, 2007 05:15 AM (GzvlQ)
13
FactCheck forgot to include the part where Bush lobbied to allow more access to domestic oil supplies at ANWAR, etc.
Our rising dependence on foreign sources can also be attributed to our Leftist pals' resistance to nuclear power construction and off-shore drilling.
Posted by: reagan80 at January 26, 2007 08:35 AM (qjCPY)
14
Nuclear power is related to electrical generation, whereas the petroleum dependency is a liquid fuels crisis. You might suggest that nukes can be used for hydrogen generation, though the leading fuel cells require substantial amounts of platinum, global supplies of which are insufficient to replace even 25% of the US auto fleet, not even considering the prohibitive costs of exhausting such a rare and expensive metal to begin with.
Off shore drilling has been strongly opposed by Jeb Bush.
Getting over our "addiction to oil" as our President so directly puts it requires us to look to our own 'drug habit' first, before clawing our way to scoring our next fix.
Posted by: will at January 30, 2007 06:13 AM (GzvlQ)
600 Enemies Nabbed
But, as we all have learned, the trick is not in the capture. It's in resisting the inevitable chorus of idiots demanding that we release the bad guys.
In a major crackdown launched in the past few weeks against the Mahdi Army -- the militia headed by Sadr and now considered the biggest security threat to Iraq by the Pentagon -- more than 600 fighters and 16 militia leaders have been detained, the military said.
"There are currently over 600 illegal Jaish al-Mahdi (JAM) militia in detention awaiting prosecution from the government of Iraq," a statement said.
It said Iraqi and US forces had also detained 16 high-level militiamen and killed one commander in a series of operations against the Mahdi Army, known for its fierce anti-US stance.
"The detainees are responsible for attacks against the government of Iraq, Iraqi citizens and coalition forces," the military said.
Combined Iraqi and US forces have carried out 52 operations in the past 45 days focused on the Mahdi Army as well as 42 operations that targetted Sunni extremists, it said.
The operations against Sunni extremists led to the capture of 33 cell leaders in Baghdad, the statement said, charging that the detainees were mainly involved in facilitating the entry of foreign fighters into Iraq.
The US military has accused the Mahdi Army, which is believed to have up to 60,000 fighters, of being heavily involved in the sectarian killing of Sunni Arabs in Baghdad and other regions of the country.
US and Iraqi forces aim to take down these fighters as part of a Baghdad security plan announced by US President George W. Bush earlier this month to crush the sectarian fighting that killed tens of thousands of people last year.
1
Fallujah Delenda Est.
When you mess with the bull, you get the horns.
Posted by: shelly at January 24, 2007 02:53 AM (SLFj+)
2
We've been gathering intel for two years now. This is the stirrings of the Spring Offensive, when we'll put it all to work. People don't know how incredibly good/effective we really are.
Posted by: Casca at January 24, 2007 01:50 PM (Y7t14)
1
Hell, he was Mr. Elizabeth Taylor for a while; what the heck did you expect, Rush Limbaugh?
Posted by: shelly at January 23, 2007 03:58 AM (SLFj+)
2
One thing I like about Warner (my senator for many years) is his ability to assess a situation and come up with what he believes is the correct situation. His considerable experience in positions of military leadership have given him insights that the rest of us outsiders can only guess (or opine) at.
While he tends to be reliably Republican on most issues, he does possess an independent streak (i.e., backing Coleman instead of North in VA Senatorial Primary, etc).
I don't agree with him on some issues (energy, for example), but admire his ability to arrive at his own conclusions and (some of the time) stand up for what he believes is right, instead of accepting commands from a powerful political hack. Indeed, that independent thinking is one of the most admirable traits I look for in a politician, a drought of which we now suffer.
Posted by: will at January 23, 2007 06:13 AM (GzvlQ)
3
Once again Will establishes his bonafides as a jibbering idiot.
Posted by: Casca at January 23, 2007 07:57 AM (Y7t14)
4
Casca,
He's trying desparetly to wrest the mantle from you, this sites true gibbering and I might add, drooling, Xanthippe.
Begone vile harpytard!
Posted by: strawman at January 23, 2007 08:07 AM (9ySL4)
5
agrees with will=independent thinker
disagrees with will=political hack
If 70% of the American people have grown tired of fighting and Warner can read which way the wind blows, does that make him an independent thinker?
Posted by: annika at January 23, 2007 11:47 AM (zAOEU)
6
49% of the American people have grown some common sense and re-evaluated this morass that they also have come to understand was predicated on lies and deceit. They recognize that it has NOTHIng to do with thieir safety nor the cause of fighting terrorism. To call this weary is an awful self deception on your part Anni. They ahve seen 3500 of their childred die with no end in sight and no progrees made on the supposed goal of liberation and creation of a free society. Meglomania is on the tip of their tongues.
Posted by: strawman at January 23, 2007 11:54 AM (9ySL4)
7
Did I say 49% ? Rather it should agree with hostesssss 70%
Posted by: strawman at January 23, 2007 02:56 PM (9ySL4)
8
These fucking socks stink. Any wonder that they always show up in a pair? Warner is typical of the political class, self-interest above all. I KNOW how he got promoted to Colonel.
Posted by: Casca at January 23, 2007 04:45 PM (2gORp)
9
Anni wrote:
> agrees with will=independent thinker
> disagrees with will=political hack
I believe that while there is some basis of truth in this assessment, it is too polar and falls into the category of false dichotomy.
While I do appreciate positions of those who exhibit more independent thinking, there are some whom I agree with on specific points that are not independent thinkers.
On the second suggested 'axiom', I was referring to majority/minority leaders and whips who have as their imperative the political objectives of their party (and their contributors). In this category I would put Delay out in front (who drove his charges like cattle), with Lott and Reid as lesser hacks. Frist and Daschle were a bit more above the fray, at least at first. Mitchell and Dole at least put a gentlemanly face on their role. McConnell has not been afraid to be the spokeman for politically charged statements, but I'll reserve final judgement on him until I see more.
Casca wrote:
> These f__king socks stink.
I would recommend you change them more often.
Posted by: will at January 24, 2007 07:31 AM (GzvlQ)
I am going to take this conversation directly to the people of America, and I'm starting by inviting all of you to join me in a series of web chats over the next few days. . . . I need you to be a part of this campaign, and I hope you'll start by joining me in this national conversation.
Okeydoke. I imagine when I log on Monday, the conversation might go a little bit like this:
1
Annie, you got it all wrong; those who got in the way, got killed, not sued.
It is the Clinton way.
Posted by: shelly at January 20, 2007 09:35 PM (SLFj+)
2
lol, I was just wondering... who's going to teach all those hairy legged dykes how to use IRC?
Posted by: Casca at January 21, 2007 12:13 AM (2gORp)
3
Or, the computer keyboards with the "W"'s all missing that they left us?
Posted by: shelly at January 21, 2007 03:11 AM (SLFj+)
4
Well, at least we can get Jamie Gorelick back so she can rebuild the wall between the criminal and terrorist units over at the FBI; that ought to put us out of the counter terrorist business again.
Posted by: shelly at January 21, 2007 03:13 AM (SLFj+)
5
I would be upset, but I don't think she now has a snowballs chance. I think we should as a nation agree everyone to the following premise; Never again for any reason and at any level will we vote for anyone named Clinton, Bush, Dole, or Kennedy.
Posted by: kyle8 at January 21, 2007 06:20 AM (BWn7d)
6
Politically I don't like her but in person she is not an unpleasant person to be around. I along with several other Marines did security detail for her during the Victory in Europe celebrations. They wanted a lot heavier stuff than the secret service agents are used to carrying so they had us set up in locations such as her hotel room etc. with medium machine guns (M-60) and M-16's. Same for all Gore's room and we were under every podium they stood on as well. Mrs. Clinton and Chelsea took it all in their stride (Bill did not attend) and were nice considering they had a bunch of infantry dorks hanging out with them all the time. I have no idea what they were expecting to happen but it was fun duty as it was so far outside of the norm of what we were usually doing. I still wouldn't vote for her even if she was the last candidate. I would pencil in Donald Duck or something.
Posted by: Andy at January 21, 2007 11:31 AM (zGJwm)
7
Pencil in Donald Duck--I love it! Your story is interesting, Andy. I'm sure Mrs. Clinton isn't beyond redemption but she's beyond my vote. My dad's a retired Navy chaplain and we learned a lot about stuff you don't normally hear about when he served for a year at 8th and I in Washington, D.C. He led a Bible study that Ollie North attended occasionally.
I sat behind Col. and Mrs. North at a wedding when I was home from college--during the Iran-Contra hearings. She was wearing that red and white dress she wore several times while attending the hearings. At the reception we were introduced and I told him I was majoring in English Lit. He said, "I've got a book you could write!"
Posted by: Joules at January 21, 2007 11:57 AM (u4CYb)
8
You'd have done better to write his current series, "War Stories".
The guy must be making millions now, and I am happy as a clam for him.
Like GWB, he took bullets for all of us.
We need to do something about our liberal mainstream media that villifies every hero that stsands up for America. The Hate America First group has to go.
Posted by: shelly at January 21, 2007 04:42 PM (SLFj+)
9
Nyah, hate to spoil this for all you civilians, but who would use an M60 in a public setting but a bunch of know-nothing buffoons like the Clintons? All it woiuld do is make a mess. Who did you belong to then Andy?
As for LtCol North, he was a mediocre LtCol out of his element. When you run an intel op, you maintain plausible deniability. His ego wouldn't let him. I've met him a half dozen times, and conversed with him twice. He stands up to his rep as an egotistical solid gold prick, even if he is one of ours.
Posted by: Casca at January 21, 2007 05:58 PM (2gORp)
10
May be, but compared to Murtha and John Kerry, he looks pretty solid to me.
True, he just did ride a desk, but he did some good work against terrorism and for that he deserves some respect.
Posted by: shelly at January 21, 2007 07:23 PM (SLFj+)
11
He did more than ride a desk. He was one of the gunfighters of 1968, when cocksuckers like Clinton were smoking dope and getting laid regular. I didn't say that on a certain level that I don't respect him, but I don't lionize him as most do.
Just had an epiphany on the Bronco Bomber hoohaa. He is this cycle's Howard Dean. The question is not will he implode, but when.
Posted by: Casca at January 21, 2007 07:35 PM (2gORp)
Posted by: Radical Redneck at January 21, 2007 10:36 PM (cOyko)
13
Hey guys, check out the foilage behind Hillary during the "announcement" that she had just decided to form an exploratory committee!!!
It is full on October, certainly not winter (a freezing cold one, at that)in Washington, DC, er... New York, er... Arkansas er... Illinios, or wherever the Hell she has moved now.
Posted by: shelly at January 22, 2007 04:53 AM (SLFj+)
14
Gak! Shelly, for a second I thought you wrote "Check out Hillary's foliage!"
Posted by: kyle8 at January 22, 2007 05:07 AM (xY4vK)
15
Col. Sanders has his Hillary Special on again this week:
Two small breasts and two fat thighs for $2.008.
Posted by: shelly at January 22, 2007 08:10 AM (SLFj+)
16
Casca,
I was with MCSFBn at the time:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usmc/mcsfbn.htm
You are correct it would have made a mess but d@mn it would have been fun to open up with the pig in the middle of a city in England.
Posted by: Andy at January 22, 2007 09:32 AM (zGJwm)
1
I can't wait for the candidate debates! She'll win the primary, and tank in the general. It's not 1992 anymore.
Posted by: Casca at January 20, 2007 03:44 PM (2gORp)
2
Casca, I used to be optimistic about Hillary, (yes optimistic). Now, the more I think about her, I'm beggining to doubt that she can win the nomination. Bomber will be formidable, as he has the antidote for every one of her negatives. He's consistent on the war, he has no voting record to speak of, he's not from any political dynasty, he has charm, he's not perceived as "too liberal," and chicks dig him. By contrast, the nutjobs will protest hillary at every turn, she has to answer for her Iraq vote, her last name is Clinton and I think we're all tired of the Bush-->Clinton merry-g0-round, she's got two public personas: wooden and/or abrasive, no one has forgotten her socialized medicine boondoggle, and half the women in this country despise her, not to mention three fourths of the men.
If Hilary doesn't win the nomination, who does. Since I won't be blogging next year, let me make my preliminary prediction now (subject to change, of course): John Edwards - Bronco Bomber.
Posted by: annika at January 20, 2007 03:55 PM (1EshY)
3
"Since I won't be blogging next year"
*GASP* WH...WHAT?!
Posted by: reagan80 at January 20, 2007 05:35 PM (wkyrW)
4
Bronco is the new kid in town. His bloom will fade. Next year this time, people will be saying... "What were we thinking?"
Candidates are only the faces of campaigns, like actors are to movies. The Clintons own the apparatus in the D world. Bronco aint got a snowballs chance to make it through the primary process.
Posted by: Casca at January 20, 2007 06:09 PM (2gORp)
5
This is not the BCS Championship; Casca knows what he's talking about here.
The Clinton steamroller machine will be in high gear, and all the geeks will come out of the woodwork to try to re-live the good old days.
She will be the nominee, and our anti-Hillary will be John McCain.
Or, if you will, President McCain.
McCain-Rice beats Clinton-Obama.
Any questions?
Posted by: shelly at January 20, 2007 06:52 PM (SLFj+)
6
Casca, Shelly, you may be right.
the clinton machine is already up and running.Are the American people ready for an elected president who was educated in a Madrassa as a young boy and has not been forthcoming about his Muslim heritage?This is the question Sen. Hillary Rodham ClintonÂ’s camp is asking about Sen. Barack Obama.An investigation of Mr. Obama by political opponents within the Democratic Party has discovered that Mr. Obama was raised as a Muslim by his stepfather in Indonesia. Sources close to the background check, which has not yet been released, said Mr. Obama, 45, spent at least four years in a so-called Madrassa, or Muslim seminary, in Indonesia."He was a Muslim, but he concealed it," the source said. "His opponents within the Democrats hope this will become a major issue in the campaign."
Posted by: annika at January 20, 2007 10:20 PM (1EshY)
7
I'm not down with the McCain thang. It's still early. In my heart, I'm waiting for another guy who is tanned, rested, and ready.
Posted by: Casca at January 21, 2007 12:19 AM (2gORp)
8
Remember that taking a pasting like we just did in November does wonders for the arrogant assholes in our psrty who are looking for the perfect conservative; after they put up Hillary, everyone will opt for the the ticket that can beat the Wicked Witch of the North.
I'm here to tell you that it is McCain and Rice if we want to hold 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue for eight more years.
The tanned, rested guy is Mitt, but she beats him.
Posted by: shelly at January 21, 2007 03:23 AM (SLFj+)
9
i dont know. giuliani spent a lot of time in jamaica. can you get a tan in queens?
Posted by: annika at January 21, 2007 09:15 AM (NMDyy)
10
C'mon kids, it was a Nixonian reference! Who's Nixonian???
Posted by: Casca at January 21, 2007 09:35 AM (2gORp)
11
I want Walter Williams to run so I can hear him tell stories about Mrs. Williams and everything else. I don't think either cHillary or B.O. are gonna make it all the way to the White House.
Posted by: Joules at January 21, 2007 12:13 PM (u4CYb)
12Notice that the video shot is not wide enough for you to see the rug?
That's because Janet Reno is munching the gaping, fooul, fetid ooze-crusted thing!
Posted by: Radical Redneck at January 21, 2007 06:56 PM (cOyko)
Posted by: Casca at January 21, 2007 07:15 PM (2gORp)
14
Children, Casca is ttrying to relate what happened in '60 for the first TV debate beteen a pale, overly made up Nixon and a tanned, rested JFK.
The TV told the story, and it was still just in black and white (for those too young to remember when we didn't have color TV, let alone HD-TV).
Nixon was totally prepared, but looked like a ghost; JFK spent the week at his sister, Pat Lawford's place, right down from where I live.
Pat and Peter lived right on Santa Monica beach, on the sand. Jack was body surfing and tanning all week long and looked like a Million Bucks.
That won the election, right there and then.
Posted by: shelly at January 22, 2007 08:16 AM (SLFj+)
15
I wrote a great reply to Shelly's senior moment, but the filter won't let me post it. After ten minutes... I say fug it.
Posted by: Casca at January 22, 2007 10:36 PM (2gORp)
16
Oh, OK, the short version is that Nixon was tanned, rested and ready in 1968 when he arose from the political dead, and thumped some liberal from Minnesota. Don Hewitt was the producer of the 1960 television debate, enough said. Nixon was set up.
Posted by: Casca at January 22, 2007 10:39 PM (2gORp)
17
Nixon WAS set up, but it was the last time he let that happen. He seldom made the same mistake.
He did some great things during his term, just too bad that he was stupid about the break-in.
That was a great lesson in how not to deal with adversity for those watching.
Posted by: shelly at January 23, 2007 04:06 AM (SLFj+)
Posted by: Casca at January 17, 2007 01:06 PM (Y7t14)
2
I don't know much at all about Bronco Bomber, which why I'm puzzled by all the adulation he's getting from the media. I mean, he's been in the Senate for two frickin' years and he's Prez material? Dan Quayle must be spinning in his hammock.
Posted by: Tuning Spork at January 17, 2007 05:29 PM (XGbiv)
3
They were talking on NPR today about how internet savvy he (or his peeps) is.
Posted by: Joules at January 17, 2007 07:08 PM (u4CYb)
4
Who is "Bronco Bomber" I have never heard of the guy?
Posted by: Andy at January 18, 2007 09:42 AM (zGJwm)
5Who is "Bronco Bomber"
Rapidly say "Barack Obama" over and over again.
Fucking tongue twisters....
Posted by: reagan80 at January 18, 2007 10:13 AM (wkyrW)
6
Spork,
Dan QualeÂ’s problems had nothing to do with few or many years in the senate. He was just another typical, shallow, malleable, ignorant, good looking, candidate that the R's love to put up. god loving, quarterback types who will eschew science, book learning, and history. Sound familiar?
Posted by: strawman at January 18, 2007 10:57 AM (9ySL4)
7
Yes it sounds familiar, just as your screed always does. Now BEGONE FUCKTARD!
Posted by: Casca at January 18, 2007 12:01 PM (Y7t14)
8
OH OK I went for McCain then as the lesser of two evils besides America isn't ready for a black president yet. There are still large areas that are Republican normally that would not vote for a black President and I'd hate for the Dems to win by default.
Same kind of thing with for the Dems with Hillary Clinton. To many folks who would vote Democrat wouldn't vote because she's a woman and who ever the Republican is would win by default.
Come to think of it that would be good for my personal political leanings so hopefully Hillary Clinton runs as the Dems candidate.
Maybe I'm wrong with this because I am frequently wrong about a lot of things but I don't think America is ready to vote a woman or a minority of any race into the White House. As a nation we still have to many built in prejudices for this to happen. Although many folks might say they aren't prejudiced against minority races or women, when the rubber meets the road I bet many of them would vote for the other side, or an independent should one run, simply because the candidate for their party was a minority race or a woman.
Posted by: Andy at January 18, 2007 12:26 PM (zGJwm)
9
So was Howard Dean, Joules.
Andy, I think America is ready for a black president, and I think Bronco Bomber can do well either at the top or bottom of the ticket. Especially if the Republicans are stupid enough to nominate Romney or someone of his ilk.
And here is the origin of "Bronco Bomber."
Posted by: annika at January 18, 2007 01:04 PM (zAOEU)
10
God, this is a tough one. I'd have to take McCain for his pro-life views, but it would be like swallowing a gallon of castor oil.
Posted by: Mark at January 18, 2007 03:39 PM (/c6lU)
Bronco Bomber Endorsements
I find it interesting that so many MSM web stories celebrating Bronco Bomber's formation of an exploratory committee contain a hyperlink to his campaign website. It's interesting because a cursory check of old web stories about other candidates who have formed exploratory committees in the last few months (e.g. Giuliani, Vilsack, Romney, Tancredo) do not contain such thinly disguised endorsements.
1
Of course, the media doesn't have a left-wing bias, Annika. And Will has a link that will prove it conclusively.
During the 2004 Presidential campaign when about 2/3 of the coverage for Kerry was positive and about 2/3 of the coverage was negative for Bush that was just your imagination in overdrive.
And, I'm certain that the MSM will be just as even-handed in 2008. LOL!
Posted by: blu at January 16, 2007 04:56 PM (IYDwv)
The "Surge" Speech
The President has now outlined his new approach for Iraq. Do I think it will work? Really, who cares what I think? I don't care what anybody else thinks. The time for punditry has long passed. This is the time for results. I sense that the President finally understands this.
As I've said before, arguing about whether we should set a timetable for withdrawal is stupid. We already have one, and the deadline is January 20th, 2009. No amount of wishful thinking by war hawks can change the fact that unless there is significant and obvious improvement in Iraq, and soon, the next president of the United States will be elected on a platform of withdrawal.
Therefore, we who long for success should know that this is our last chance to succeed. We have less than two years. Those who oppose us know that this is the endgame for Iraq too. Our foreign enemies will do everything they can to embarrass U.S. forces by creating atrocities or inventing them wherever possible. Our domestic enemies will then do all they can to portray these atrocities as evidence of the failure, futility and immorality of our purpose.
Whether we succeed or not depends very little on what you or I say here at home, given those facts. Our men and women at arms will accomplish everything that is asked of them, as they always have. The question is whether the President and his generals will have the guts to keep fighting when the inevitable criticism hits fever pitch. Based on past experience, I need convincing.
This country is anti-war; our domestic enemies have already won that battle (with the unwitting help, I might add, of Mr. Rumsfeld and the commander-in-chief himself). The President's speech tonight will not magically transform the public's fatigue any more than it can change the Washington press corps into a group of people who love their country. If success is possible at this late hour, Mr. Bush will have to do it without the support of Congress, the media, or the majority of the American people.
But as President Bush explained less than half an hour ago, failure in Iraq would be a disaster. And therefore, I hope he understands above all that now is the time for results.
1
Well, what are the majority of the American people thinking? I want the new i-Phone? We can't alter the course of a country without making sure we help them get on their feet to some degree before we leave.
Posted by: Joules at January 10, 2007 08:48 PM (u4CYb)
2
I'm weary of defeatist sentiments. Hopefully Petraeus is Bush's Grant. A man with the strength to do what needs to be done.
Ultimately, there is no way to walk away from this war. The cowards stayed home from Vietnam, and bullied the people into turning their backs on the sacrifice and victory of the valiant. That won't work this time. The war will find them here if they accomplish the same thing in Iraq.
Posted by: Casca at January 10, 2007 09:59 PM (2gORp)
3
Casca hit the nail right on the head with that one. This is unlike most any war we've fought in the last century. If we don't win this war, we can't just bring everyone home and say "Oh well, at least we tried." The war will follow us here, and I would much rather we fight in their streets than ours.
Posted by: Frank at January 11, 2007 08:34 AM (YHZAl)
4
I agree that words are fairly meaningless now, but I'd still like for the President cogently to define the enemy (Islamo-fascism); to re-emphasize our strategic, long-term goals in the region. And then make the obvious link between the two. The President has spent more time the past few years peddling PC nonsense about the "religion of peace" and worrying about collateral damage than he has about making a strong argument for our presence in Iraq. This adminstration and more specifically this President has refused to speak directly and honestly to the American people about the enemy and why Iraq is so strategic in winning the GWOT. Reagan he ain't. The war of ideas is every bit as important as the war on the ground. We, the good guys, are losing both.
And somebody tell me again why Sadr is still alive...
Posted by: blu at January 11, 2007 11:03 AM (j8oa6)
5
From President Bush, I smell a hint of desperation, and of urgency. Good. It has been missing.
Only desperation and urgency moved President Bush to put Iran and Syria on notice: we will take military action against you. Finally! President Bush had not been serious enough to take that necessary step.
Bush to Ahmanutjob: "You and I have unfinished business!"
Posted by: gcotharn at January 11, 2007 12:45 PM (xq9zD)
6
"The war of ideas is every bit as important as the war on the ground. We, the good guys, are losing both."
Exactly HOW are we losing the war on the ground? It's unconventional warfare. The more powerful side only loses when it quits.
Posted by: Casca at January 11, 2007 06:48 PM (2gORp)
7
You think we are winning? You think Iraq is stable? You think having Sadr running around doing what he likes when he likes to do it, is winning? You think we are winning when the President admits that Syria and Iran are sending in bodies and weapons? Delusion is not a strategy. Neither is a PC-run war. I hope the President's "surge" begins to address the current reality.
As you well know, I'm a Bush supporter and a supporter of the war. That, however, does not preclude me from exercising critical thinking. I don't think we've lost. But, we have a very short window to turn things around and start winning the both the physical and propoganda war.
The gloves need to come off or we will lose. Winning for the other side just means keeping the chaos going. Winning for us means a stable Iraq that is a dependable ally and is not run by Muslim fanatics. Winning for us is a much more difficult task.
Posted by: blu at January 11, 2007 07:20 PM (IYDwv)
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p.s. there wouldn't have been a speech last night if we were winning.
Posted by: blu at January 11, 2007 07:31 PM (IYDwv)
9
Nah, there would have been more speeches were we winning.
Yet, I hesitate to say we are losing. It's like playing a very long invloved game of Monopoly. Sometimes you are up, other times down.
I like to play Monopoly, but, I actually hide my properties and money under the board, so my foe doesn't know my hand.
Posted by: Jenn at January 11, 2007 08:31 PM (d3Ou4)
10
Jenn, I hope that both you and Casca are right, and I am wrong. In the meantime, let's pray the President's new plan has a positive impact both in Iraq and America. As Annika said above, our enemies - the insurgents and the American Left - both want America to fail in Iraq and so they will be working OT in pursuit of that goal.
As a side note, I believe there are two kinds of people: those who enjoy Monopoly and those who despise it.
Posted by: blu at January 12, 2007 12:15 AM (IYDwv)
11
> This country is anti-war; our domestic enemies have already won that battle (with the unwitting help, I might add, of Mr. Rumsfeld and the commander-in-chief himself).
1. Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Wolfowitz are the main reason this country is anti-war. They bumbled the intelligence to lie their way into a strategy to secure oil resources, the bumbled the troop levels, they bumbled the plan for the aftermath, Bremer made numerous bumbles, ammo depots were not secured or demolished, and it goes on and on.
2. Domestic enemies? We are the American people, though there is much partisan hate that creates a chasm of disunity. You can't blame people for saying, "Wait, what are we really getting ourselves into?", or "the adminstration is making serious errors in decision-making". Such people are not enemies, but patriots. Yes, patriots. I'm all for giving a leader the ability to threaten engagement if a threat to our nation or world stability must be confronted. I utterly despise being lied to about the reasons for unleashing the dogs of war, especially when the objectives of keeping WMD out of the hands of madmen are completely and incompetently bumbled, as in the case of North Korea and perhaps soon to be Iran. If you mean domestic enemies as those who are tired of the policies of the arch-conservative wing of the Republican party, then that is well over 50% of the American people.
While blu will likely disagree with much of the above, I happen to agree with his comments above.
Casca> "Exactly HOW are we losing the war on the ground? It's unconventional warfare. The more powerful side only loses when it quits."
There were other uncoventional wars such as Vietnam and the American Revolution, to name two, where the superior force was routed because of unconventional tactics. This is a complex subject, so a few paragraphs in a comment won't really capture the essence of the many nuances.
Posted by: will at January 12, 2007 09:49 AM (h7Ciu)
12
Well Blu,
I like monopoly but rarely find the time to play. It helped me to clarify the dilemmas of wealth and moral ambiguity of capitalism at an early stage of my life. That said I don't like the war in Iraq, nor am I an enemy of the US. That kind of thinking is, as you know, really shallow and primarily the retort of those whose real arguments and policies have failed. Casca thinks that because he doesn't see people clambering aboard helo's from the embassy roof we are not beaten. Beaten we may not be but winning we certainly are not. Sure, in each fire fight and house to house we are not overwhelmed, pushed back or do we suffer losses greater than our enemy. If you are living in a box with tinfoil lining your hat, that may look like winning but this attempt to subdue a country, install a government that has little meaning to most of the population and has terrible meaning to a violent minority will require more than successful house to house searches and winning a fire-fight whenever the enemy is too stupid to avoid it.
Winning would be a political decision on the part of the Iraqi population to embrace the heel of America's boot and to call it freedom. You can kill millions and that won't happen. The GWOT is not being fought in Iraq. Iraq is just another thinly disguised American attempt at projecting influence in the service of maintaining access to raw materials and markets exchanging the wholesale destruction of non-American lives and societies to ensure America's continued gluttonous consumption of the worldÂ’s resources and maintaining our "quality of life". We have no humanitarian interest in Dafur because acting there cannot further Capitalism's goals. Saving 100,000 lives in Africa returns no gain to the US economy nor advances our influence in matters that are truly important to us.
The transparency of this equation to the rest of the world is the essence of why America is despised. ItÂ’s neither our freedom, nor our quality of life (which is obviously terrific) it is our hypocritical plundering. Our schoolyard bully approach to our clear military might yet our clear weakness when we must confront the nature of our core values. I thought it was very telling yesterday when Condiliar said it would be coming to them as the "supplicant" should we seek to negotiate with and possibly enjoin the governments of Syria, Jordan etc. to help with stabilizing Iraq. Powerful people or nations do worry about such things if they believe in their strength and the value of their goals unless, of course, if their stated goal is a lie and their strength in doubt.
Posted by: strawman at January 12, 2007 10:11 AM (9ySL4)
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Ironic, Straw, that you like Monopoly, while I have always freakin' hated it. (Not because I don't love capitalism. More because I have a very hard time sitting still. Monopoly is not a game for those lacking patience or for the restless.)
Posted by: blu at January 12, 2007 12:18 PM (IYDwv)
14
Blu,
Truth be told I have not sat at a Monoply board since I was 14 or so and have not given the idea of playing a thought since then. It made for an opening sentence that i liked.
Posted by: strawman at January 12, 2007 12:48 PM (9ySL4)
Posted by: blu at January 12, 2007 03:00 PM (IYDwv)
16
I think a monopoly game with all you guys would be really fun.
Will, I do think that most Americans who today identify themselves as anti-war have a real hard time understanding why we invaded a country that did not attack us. I do not fault them for that point of view, I totally understand it, and I do not consider such people "domestic enemies," as among their number I count many friends and family members.
By "domestic enemies" I mean people who are actively working to aid the enemy and to bring about the defeat of United States forces in Iraq and elsewhere. Many of the people I mean are doing so knowingly, and many are doing so unwittingly, but I consider them enemies either way. But in no way do I mean to imply that anyone who questions the Iraq War is a "domestic enemy." I am sorry I did not make that distinction clear in the post.
Posted by: annika at January 12, 2007 04:12 PM (1EshY)
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Annika, perhaps I went a tad overboard, though your distinction helps. Could you identify by name who you think some of our domestic enemies are?
Posted by: will at January 12, 2007 06:25 PM (h7Ciu)
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I welcome the opportunity to have a reasoned discourse with reagan80.
1. They bumbled the intelligence...."
Of course, but so did everyone else outside of and before the Bush administration. Anybody remember Operation Desert Fox?
The pre-war intel failures also make the conservative/libertarian case that Big Gov't is prone to Murphy's Law. As someone already pointed out in another thread, that is why we're fucked if we ever have to rely on the bureaucrats to stop climate change or blow up giant asteroids before impacting on earth.
"Bumbled" was too kind a word; "distorted" would have been better. The initial CIA findings were that Iraq did not have a WMD capability. Cheney/Rumsfeld didn't think that was sufficient enough, so they pressured Tennant by threatening to create a foreign intelligence unit in DoD, and by good old arm-twisting. It was win-win for them; when the intel proved grossly wrong, they would be able to boot Tennant and put in someone of their own choosing.
Would you have national intel run by multi-national corporations? States? Don't forget that it was the conservatives who royally screwed this one up.
2. "....to lie their way into a strategy to secure oil resources,"
I'd love to see Will prove this accusation.
I freely admit that this is more an opinion formed from my understanding of global oil resources and the nature of Cheney's influence. Blu criticizes me for not being opinionated, so you two need to get together to determine a happy medium.
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that he was indeed a "moderate" or "independent", but it seems that he's really just some poseur trying to re-package his Leftism into something "hip".
This is not simply a "lefty" opinion. There are many moderates and conservatives who also are concerned about our current oil consumption levels and recognize the need to change. For a start, look at the names on these documents (e.g., Bates, no less);
http://www.secureenergy.org/reports/ESLC_Oil_Report.pdf
http://www.secureenergy.org/reports/oil_shock_report_master.pdf
Even if that were true, I'd rather it be us controlling oil supplies than China. "China and the United States are the largest users and competitors for the world's rapidly diminishing oil reserves. Going forward, the US and ChinaÂ’s projected requirements will consume 60%-70% of the worldÂ’s production. This demand cannot be met and one country will experience brown outs, gasoline shortages, factory shutdowns as a result of having a lack of energy."Strawman might consider our national interest to be an obsolete pursuit, but I'm sure he's in the minority if the country had to choose between self-destruction or conducting imperialism to prevent it.
http://www.secureenergy.org/reports/Briefing-OilDependence.pdf
I agree that there is the potential for a serious oil supply disruptions, though I take another view on what the need truly is, and agree in large part with the solutions in the first link a couple of paragraphs above. I encourage your comments on those documents.
3. "the bumbled the troop levels,"
That's somewhat true, but it isn't entirely Bush Jr.'s fault or even under his control(besides the draft).
I completely understand your rationale about fighting multiple wars. Hence, we shouldn't have gone in at that time. Period. I don't see how you can escape this reality. Two years ago, perhaps, but not now.
4."they bumbled the plan for the aftermath"
That's true, but it probably wouldn't have mattered even if they hadn't.
They didn't understand the situation during planning, nor did they have a clue what was going on shortly thereafter. The aftermath plan was put on the backburner, because it was perceived as unimportant by Rumsfeld. Bremer was using an inexperienced staff of young ideologues who were political appointments rotated through on 3 month shifts, and also grossly undermanned. This discussion alone could take up an entire book. I suggest you read "Fiasco" for a perspective that you probably haven't considered before. If nothing else, talk to a senior military acquaintance of yours and ask their take on the matter. Be prepared to listen.
5. "I utterly despise being lied to about the reasons for unleashing the dogs of war"
They did not lie. They were just gravely mistaken.
Perhaps you even disagree with Powell, who regrets his role in the matter, especially the sexing up of the intel. His fault was being a good soldier, and he was always outnumbered to begin with. Note that he is not shy now about speaking his own mind.
6. "especially when the objectives of keeping WMD out of the hands of madmen are completely and incompetently bumbled"
You might be right, but it doesn't change the fact that one of the Axis of Evil members had to go down.
Perhaps at some point, but the timing was horribly wrong. We were in Afghanistan at the time, and negotiating with NK to stop their nuclear weapons program. But someone wanted to be a war president, egged on no doubt by the VP. After all, if Bush secured future energy supplies, and conservatives got to push their agenda through under the fog of war, they would come out smelling like roses. The odor is something else entirely now.
our Arab pseudo-allies in the region will most likely back away from their own nuclear development programs since they won't have to worry about the "Persian bomb" anymore.
That completely ignores the situation in Iran, the only other country with the resources to undertake such a venture.
Posted by: will at January 13, 2007 04:30 AM (h7Ciu)
19
"The initial CIA findings were that Iraq did not have a WMD capability."
Really? Then, WTF was Operation Desert Fox about? The intelligence community thought Iraq had enough WMD capabilities to justify bombing them in '98. From then on, there were no UN weapons inspectors in Iraq until late 2002. You're telling me that the CIA conclusively knew that there was no way in hell that Saddam was acquiring WMD's, despite a 4-year absence of inspectors in the country? Riiight. Could you direct me to the store that sold them their time machines and crystal balls? k thx
The "consensus", at the time, on pre-war intelligence could have been just as wrong as it was in the final years of the Cold War. IIRC, the CIA was caught by surprise when the Wall came down and the USSR collapsed. At the time, they actually thought the Soviets had a sustainable economic system matching our own.
"Would you have national intel run by multi-national corporations? States? Don't forget that it was the conservatives who royally screwed this one up."
No, I was just making another one of my obligatory arguments for limited gov't. Bush expanded the size of government more than the last 3 administrations combined. If you haven't noticed already, conservatism in the current Republican Party is vestigial, at best.
If we're going to have Big Gov't, I'd rather see less of it here, and more of it going overseas to plague our enemies.
"Hence, we shouldn't have gone in at that time. Period."
No, we should've gone in, but not to conduct democratic nation-building. We had enough troops to destroy the Iraqi military, but we needed the Iraqi army intact. If we had ensured the Sunni Arabs that one of their own would succeed Saddam and maintain the status quo, the post-war transition would've proceeded more smoothly and allowed us a graceful exit. Disbanding the Iraqi army and attempting to democratize a bunch of tribal primitives was the real blunder. We should've been waging the war as a punitive expedition to put the Iranians and Syrians on notice that we wouldn't put up with their shit anymore. Instead, it was turned into a liberal social engineering program that ended up emboldening them.
"I don't see how you can escape this reality."
Try renting the Matrix trilogy sometime.
"I suggest you read "Fiasco" for a perspective that you probably haven't considered before."
That won't be necessary. I was already awareofthosedetails from my other sources. I don't need some closet Leftist telling me how to attain enlightenment.
"Perhaps you even disagree with Powell,"
Where's the quote that has Powell stating the administration LIED to, or DECEIVED everybody? It better have him using a synonymous term that denotes malicious intent on the part of the administration, or I call BS.
"Perhaps at some point, but the timing was horribly wrong."
When would have been a good time, then? After an extra year of weapon inspections? If they would've waited that long, the administration would've had a grand total of 9 months to conduct the war, assuming there was an electoral defeat in '04. The administration didn't want to take any chances that their potential peacenik successors wouldn't finish the war properly, so they went for a head start.
If we would've let sleeping dogs lie, the sanctions would've eventually been lifted after Bush was gone. Then, if not to deter us, Saddam would've definitely entered the nuclear arms race against Iran.
"That completely ignores the situation in Iran, the only other country with the resources to undertake such a venture."
Sorry for not being clearer:
[With them(Iran) out of the way, our Arab pseudo-allies in the region will most likely back away from their own nuclear development programs since they won't have to worry about the "Persian bomb" anymore.]
Iran isn't an Arab country. It's population is mostly Persian. Arabs don't like Persians. It's kind of like how Sunni Arabs don't like Sunni Kurds in Iraq, or how Arab Muslims don't take very kindly to black Muslims in Darfur. Islam resembles an Arab supremacist cult movement. Hence, a potential nuclear arms race is brewing in the Middle East. Religion of Peace, my ass.
Posted by: reagan80 at January 13, 2007 07:46 PM (wkyrW)
20en, WTF was Operation Desert Fox about?
Continued failure to comply with United Nations Security Council resolutions as well as their interference with United Nations Special Commission inspectors. We know now that there was no evidence of WMD in Iraq at that time.
No, I was just making another one of my obligatory arguments for limited gov't.
Then who do you believe should be acquiring and analysing intelligence of national strategic importance?
Try renting the Matrix trilogy sometime.
I don't get my reality from Hollywood science fiction.
No, we should've gone in, but not to conduct democratic nation-building. We had enough troops to destroy the Iraqi military, but we needed the Iraqi army intact. If we had ensured the Sunni Arabs that one of their own would succeed Saddam and maintain the status quo, the post-war transition would've proceeded more smoothly and allowed us a graceful exit.
There are any number of woulda-coulda-shoulda monday morning quarterbacking scenarios. Suffice to say, the spreading of democracy was a post factum justification. If a Sunni was put in charge through strong arm tactics, the Kurds would have simply flipped us off and the Shiites would have been push fully into the Iranian fold. rebeling in an outcome that could easily have been worst than what we are in now.
When would have been a good time, then?
After we had Afghanistan under control and NK dropping their bomb strategy. Although it is unclear whether the CINC could have pulled both of those off.
Posted by: will at January 15, 2007 01:22 PM (h7Ciu)
Hussein's Execution
I feel compelled to throw a wet blanket over some of the triumphalism I see in the blogosphere over Saddam Hussein's execution. I don't think it's a cause for Americans to be celebrating. I say this not because I'm ambivalent about the death penalty, but because we did not invade Iraq in order to kill Saddam Hussein.
We invaded Iraq to bring democracy to that part of the world, because doing so will in theory make us safer here at home. Not only have we not yet succeeded in that purpose, but our ultimate success (as well as the very theory our plan is based upon) is very much in doubt right now. No matter how much Saddam may have deserved what he got, I'd just rather save my celebrating for the day our troops return home victorious.
1
A long-term project requires celebration of intermediate milestones, as well as of the ultimate achievement. It was entirely appropriate for Americans to celebrate the victory at the Battle of Midway, even though ultimate triumph was a long way off.
Posted by: david foster at December 30, 2006 01:00 PM (/Z304)
2
Ahh but was it appropriate for the Germans to celebrate Market-Garden? Or the Confederacy to celebrate Chancellorsville? Maybe, but they still lost. If we end up losing this fight, and all we have to show for it is we killed Saddam... I just don't see the execution as a milestone. Saddam's capture? Yes, that was a milestone. Zarqawi's death was a milestone. The constitution and the elections were definitely milestones. Civil war with no end in sight and no hint of a fucking clue how to get it done before the Democrats take over and pull the plug? That is NOT a milestone.
Posted by: annika at December 30, 2006 01:12 PM (1EshY)
3
Is it just me, or do you feel kinda bad for Saddam? I didn't feel any sense of satisfaction learning that he was hung, but I did feel a sense of "loss." (?)
I don't know what it is exactly, but seeing the noose draped over his neck made me feel horrible. I didn't like seeing it at all.
Call me crazy...
Posted by: Rob at December 30, 2006 04:49 PM (o0jpu)
4
I am sorry Saddam was hanged.
He should have been executed by putting him in plastic shredder. He and his sons shredded over 10,000 people with the victim's families forced to watch the proceedings.
Posted by: Jake at December 30, 2006 05:11 PM (V6rxT)
5
It seems like what he did with his life while here on Earth is so bad that there isn't enough we could do to him to repay everyone he hurt.
Posted by: Joules at December 30, 2006 05:38 PM (u4CYb)
6
Yes Rob, you're crazy, and Anni, you're addled. Take a chill pill. Things are never as bad or as good as they seem. We've finally reached the point where we can take the hobbles off the ISF, and let them whack the Sunni's who don't want to get with the democracy thing. When we let the Kurds and Shites execute their own tactics, we'll be on the road to victory, because they're ethnically cleanse the Sunnis right the fuck out of town. Then there will be peace.
BTW, it's OK to celebrate every score, even a safety. Saddam dieing is part of the process. It should have happened sooner, and his head should be pickled in a jar of formaldehyde, but you can't have Christmas everyday.
Posted by: Casca at December 30, 2006 05:48 PM (2gORp)
7
Interesting, Rob... actually, when I saw the pictures and read the story on CNN.com, my basic, gut reaction was fear. I cannot for the life of me explain it or justify it or even understand it, but when I saw that he was dead, I just felt... afraid. (???) I really don't know why.
It probably won't come as a huge surprise that I'm no fan of the death penalty. Killing people just never feels like a victory to me. Killing a bad person doesn't undo the harm he's caused. Don't get me wrong, Saddam was a horrible horrible person and as much as I hate death and suffering, people like him make me glad that my faith teaches that people like him get their comeuppance in the afterlife. He's Satan's problem now, and I can't say that makes me sorry.
At the same time, I can't say that it makes me overjoyed either. We're still in Iraq, American soldiers and innocent Iraqi civilians are still dying in numbers I cannot be okay with, and there's no clear end -- or objective, even -- in sight.
In all, the execution does seem like something of a letdown... probably because it's so symbolic. So much was emotionally built up into this execution, when the bottom line is that the problem isn't Saddam. The problem is evil. There's evil in the world, and plenty of it to go around, and killing Saddam doesn't even make a dent. And now that Saddam's gone we have fewer people to blame for all that's fucked up with the world. Soon we'll have to start blaming ourselves.
Hmm. Maybe that's the part that scared me.
::commences ignoring attacks on her intelligence, etc., from casca::
Posted by: The Law Fairy at December 30, 2006 06:27 PM (XUsiG)
8
Execution for Saddam was too easy and short. If it had been up to me, I'd have kept the son-of-a-bitch alive, not because of any squeamishness over death penalties, but because I'd want to make clear his life was no longer his own. I'd keep him in solitary confinement for the whole time and deny him *any* access to the outside world; no books, no TV or radio, no stimulation whatsoever. His jailers would be forbidden to even speak to him or otherwise acknowledge his existence; they'd just leave food in his cell without a word. No human contact whatsoever from there on out. No leaving his tiny cell period. No daylight, no pictures or decorations, nothing but a bed, sink and toilet. No windows... I mean absolutely cutting him off from ever experiencing anything of the outside world from the sentencing on.
I'd have just let him exist, not live.
And his cell would have some one way mirrors... So that years down the road, parents could bring their children to see him, and say "Look. There's the butcher. He killed hundreds of thousands. He brutalized this whole country. And now, this is the price he pays for that. His life is no longer anything more than an object lesson. His life doesn't belong to him anymore."
But... That's all irrelevant now. The hangman's noose took care of that.
--------
Anyway, Anni's got a point. What happens to Saddam primarily matters to Iraqis, not so much us here in America. What's important to *us* is that Iraq eventually becomes the antithesis of what Saddam stood for. And oddly enough, his living or dying has next to nothing to do with that.
Posted by: elmondohummus at December 30, 2006 10:21 PM (BjOjj)
9
I think this is very symbolic for Iraqis. Essentially it is their new republic saying "We aren't going to tolerate folks like this anymore." I would urge anyone feeling even the slightest tinge of sympathy for this cat to nip it in the bud stat! I'm not saying this is any kind of military milestone but for the moment we should indulge the people of Iraq.
Posted by: Mike C. at December 31, 2006 07:12 AM (0Co69)
10
What's most interesting about the spectacle is watching the media do what they do best, nothing. Not a peep of anything having to do with U.S. support of Saddam, before, during, and after most all of his worst crimes. Not a peep about how up until the day before Kuwait Bush I gave him another billion. Not a peep about how the U.S. helping him gas the Iranians. Not a peep about how, with the help of the C.I.A., he was put into power in the first place. Not a peep about the illegality of the war in the first place. Not a peep about much of anything other than he's dead. Yea! Whoopee! We helped kill a killer who we supported! Yea for us! There's little doubt that this was nothing more than a political action and probably had little to do with law at all. For if it did, and we've decided to actually start applying the laws, for once, there are a few others who will no doubt be in trouble pretty soon. This is pretty much a case of "Look how great it is the monster's gone!" "Look what WE did!" "We got him!" "Everything can be better now!" (Camera 1: Pan to the 100 or so cheering Iraqis screaming "He's dead! He's dead!") (Camera 2: Cut to one of the "legal experts" to keep everyone busy so that we don't have to talk about all of those things kb mentioned above) (CUT to commercial selling Hanging Saddam dolls at The American Enterprise Institute. Zoom in on Kissinger punching the gallow door drop over and over) Get ready for the "in-depth" interview with three pundits who go into great detail about where the gallow was constructed, whether or not Saddam was wearing Old Spice when he refused the hood, and if his last meal was some of the spam they found in his hole in the ground. (After that just push the replay tape loop button and go on home for the week.) You've all done a really good job at showing what really happens in the world. Yes, we ARE the "liberal media" and do such a great job of really shedding light on how the real world works.kb
Posted by: kb at December 31, 2006 07:45 AM (cOyko)
11
The trouble with leaving him alive in solitary, is that we cannot predict the future of Iraq.
For all we know, Sunnis may rise again and control Iraq, thus setting the stage for a triumphant return of Saddam. This is a real risk that was not acceptable to the goverment or to us.
Better the asshole is dead and buried.
But, the suggestion of the clear shredder was a good one.
Allah Akbar, indeed...
Posted by: shelly at December 31, 2006 10:10 AM (SLFj+)
12
Good one Shelly, LF I'm sure that you were the smartest girl in high school with the highest score on every test; that you distinguished yourself in college with all sorts of academic awards, and that your law school professors hold you in thier highest regard, and you didn't even fuck any of them. The romantic world view is at home in academia. One succeeds there without being in touch with reality. In our culture one may spend a lifetime there and NEVER confront reality.
We've done the same thing with most of the rest of our culture. That's why so much of American life is turned on it's head. This is a product of feminization of the culture, and you are a prime example. That's why your initial reaction is fear. The initial masculine reaction is satisfaction a bit tainted because of the delay.
Going to war requires all of the masculine virtues; realism, strength, reason, etc... . Romanticism is an anchor around your neck when you go to war.
You may talk of gin and beer when you're quartered safe out here, and sent to petty fights in aldershotit, but when it comes to slaughter, you'll do your work on water, and lick the bloomin' boots of him what's got it.
Having smoke blown up your ass about how great you are for twenty years can fuck up your mind, and make it hard to get a reality check on your thinking. Is it so hard to grasp that you know nothing of either the reality of war, or Iraq? What number of deaths WOULD work for you?
Posted by: Casca at December 31, 2006 10:50 AM (2gORp)
Posted by: kb at December 31, 2006 12:11 PM (cOyko)
14
Saddam's execution was a matter of Iraqi law. His execution isn't a victory for the US, it's one for Iraq. A newly formed and elected government applied its laws to their former tyrant. He was allowed all due process under that system of law, tried, found guilty, sentence carried out. Done. I don't celebrate his death, but I don't lose any sleep over it.
For the US, there is a long way to go. As Annika says, the outcome is far from certain. But then I don't think of this as the "War in Iraq" but rather the "Battle for Iraq", because the actual war is much larger in scope.
Posted by: bob at December 31, 2006 04:28 PM (D3RjI)
15
Is K.B. related to M.B.(Strawman), by any chance?
Posted by: reagan80 at December 31, 2006 07:58 PM (4VV/k)
16
I'm glad those young children are studying Islam too. Knowledge is always a good thing.
And in order to truly understand the scope of racism and facism in this world, they should next study how religious and ethnic minorities fare in predominantly muslim societies. They'll see persecution and oppression far in excess of anything experienced by those living in Western nations like America.
Posted by: elmondohummus at December 31, 2006 08:50 PM (BjOjj)
17
I actually am celebrating his death. With roses and wine. Sure, I'm something of a ghoul, but I'm a romantic one and that's all that really matters these days, isn't it?
If I were to take umbrage with just one of Annie's points, it would be this: Iraq wasn't invaded to free folks. As I remember it, WMD had something to do with it initially. Freedom started being used as something more than rhetorical device after the boots were in the dirt.
Freedom's a pretty nifty thing, but I'm not that its all that practical when you're giving it to villagers who've wanted nothing more than the freedom to slaughter one another for a century. If we should've learned anything from the dissolution of Yugoslavia, it should've been that.
Here's the dirty little secret of Yugoslavia, freedom, Iraq and artificial countries generally; Tito kept the populace from killing each other by doing it for them. Saddam did the same, albeit it in far more chilling way. Destroy the tyrant and you destroy the country.
Posted by: skippystalin at December 31, 2006 11:16 PM (OzEoC)
18
Folks, the thing you peaceniks need to understand is that terrorism is bad enough when it is insurgent, but when it is state sponsored, the assets permit intolerable success.
The weapons of mass destruction once existed, of that we are sure, and we have about a million Kurds to prove it. Whether they did when we went into Iraq is meaningless; they would have existed if Saddam had his way, and probably do exist somewhere in Syria as we debate.
The thought of Iran possessing those same WMD's is intolerable to the civilized world. For all the preached political correctness, there is no power on earth that can prevent the Israelis from taking out those facilities, once the Mossad deciders they have gotten too close to operational. Bob's right; this is just a battle in Iraq. The War is far from over, it is just the beginning of the beginning, and it will exist for the rest of my lifetime, and probably my childrens' and grandchildrens' as well.
We're in this thing to end, folks. It is us or them. Wake up, they want to fucking kill us all, even you pansies who will welcome them with flowers.
God Bless George W. Bush, Don Rumsfeld, Condoleeza Rice and Dick Cheney, who will be recorded in history as having the courage to face this mortal threat at the cost of their careers. These people are true heroes and will be respected in the years to come, much the same as Truman and Reagan, both of whom left office with unpopular numbers as well.
Posted by: shelly at January 01, 2007 04:20 AM (SLFj+)
19
There were two great programs on The History Channel on Saturday. The first was Washington's Generals, none of whom would survive in the modern zero-defects culture. The second was about guerilla warfare during reconstruction after the Civil War. When the Rebels laid down their arms, they had their fingers crossed. They had no intention of freeing their negroes, nevermind equality. The spirit of the Confederacy hung on into the 1960's.
There's the analogy. The Sunnis will not go quietly into the dark night. There's a real bloodbath coming, and it will be the Kurds and the Shites stomping on the Sunnis. When it's over the Sunnis will be in Syria, or dead.
Posted by: Casca at January 01, 2007 07:09 AM (2gORp)
20
Once again I am forced to agree with Casca, Like a blunt instrument, he is crude but effective.
As for hand wringing about Saddam, hey its real simple. He killed about a half a million people. What ever happened to all those oaths after WW2 that it would never be allowed to happen again?
After going through a period of doubt, I am now fairly certain that the Iraqis will be able to establish a lasting civil government. Like Casca said, we will have to sort of turn our backs while they do what is necessary to bring the recalcitrant Sunni's into line.
Posted by: kyle8 at January 01, 2007 08:10 AM (Ng/nU)
Posted by: Casca at January 01, 2007 10:50 AM (2gORp)
22
Youth does not understand the wisdom acquired from experience. How can it, when all it has to call upon is the mainstream media and the constant drumbeat of the liberal establishment? Casca gets it, guys.
It will take some more Islamic atrocities to finally drive home the message to those unbelievers, but, in the end, I have the confidence that the sleeping giant will once again awaken and stomp out the menace that is Islam.
If I'm wrong, we're all dead.
Posted by: shelly at January 01, 2007 12:36 PM (SLFj+)
23
Saddam's execution perfectly represents the farce of our operations in Iraq: a fundamentally justifiable outcome occurred, but it was undertaken by what was, in effect, a Shia death squad, and Saddam reaped a pyrrhic victory in dying by being the only person to behave with any dignity during his execution.
So we get to put a check in our score column, while the ludicrous and basically anti-American Iraqi regime that we installed democratically commits atrocities and genocide against Sunnis and victor's justice against former regime figures under the security umbrella we have provided them.
Oh, and they get to team up with Iran when it's all over.
Yipee!!!
Posted by: Roach at January 01, 2007 09:39 PM (+/dZk)
24
Don't bet on the Iraqi's and Iranians teaming up - ever.
Iraqis are Arabs and Iranians are Persians, and never the twain shall meet.
Posted by: shelly at January 02, 2007 04:11 AM (SLFj+)
25
Colonialism is a messy bidniz, ask Kipling.
Oh, I know what you're thinking. But, FDR was a fucking socialist. If the Brits kept their empire post WWII, they'd have ready cash, and a handle on all these crackpots, and we wouldn't be mucking about with camelfuckers.
Posted by: Casca at January 02, 2007 07:36 AM (Y7t14)
26
Raygun,
Nope, never met the guy but he does make many of the points that should concern all and those which all of you wish to sweep under the table. Saddam was a good tyrant as long as he was serving our purposes. He killed wantonly, violated human rights and surely had WMD's which were fine as long as he was using them against Iran. Shelly, we sure know he had them, you dolt, we sold them to him. This fact escapes you? Or now that it has been decided that he is a bad tyrant we can simply ignore his history and our funding and support? We are pimps and he was a street walker who left our stable.
What fools you are to think this incursion and adventure had altruistic motives. This is power politics plain and simple. Get a beach-head right in the heart of the ME, scare the shit out of America and tell them this will make them secure. From Iraq we can apply pressure both militaristic and political to bring this area and its resources more firmly under our control and thwart the Chinese.
The Bush team of criminals clearly blew it. Even if you agree with their not so hidden agenda they had no fucking idea of what they were doing, clung way too long to a bad plan and any voice to the contrary was crushed by the enforcer, Sick Dick Cheney.
Killing Saddam feels bad to so many because it is tainted by all the deceptions, moving motives, lies and wanton killing on our part. We have disrupted this country to an extent that makes many Iraqi's wish for the good old days of Saddam and a dependable way of life. Clearly many feared him and many suffered at his hands, but the majority led lives of indifference and enjoyed their quotidian existence: children off to school, mom and dad off to decent jobs, 5 cent gas, nice roads to travel, museums, university and cafe life. None of them sat around bemoaning their inability to vote. That's the joke of Democracy: our belief that it is like gold-coveted by those who don't posses it. The tragedy is our hubris and childish pride that insists all who don't have it must want it even if it kills them as we stuff it down their throats. It's a global political version of a mother and her child that won't eat vegetables except that greens will make them grow up big and strong and democracy has no guarantees and certainly won't benefit those who choked to death.
Posted by: strawman at January 02, 2007 09:43 AM (9ySL4)
Posted by: Casca at January 02, 2007 09:48 AM (Y7t14)
28
Casca,
Talk about clinging to an inneffective plan. Did you learn your craft sitting at Rumnuts' side?
Posted by: strawman at January 02, 2007 10:24 AM (9ySL4)
29
Pejorative sobriquets are the last refuge of those who have lost the argument.
Posted by: shelly at January 02, 2007 10:32 AM (SLFj+)
30
Just more empty words Shelly, Casca clearly ain't listening.
Posted by: strawman at January 02, 2007 10:40 AM (9ySL4)
31
Straw,
Pitting Iraq versus Iran in the 80's made perfect sense. We need not nor should not apologize for it. Priorities change when situations on the ground change. So, throwing out the "we supported him" canard is silly because it is not an argument.
Regarding the execution, I could not get excited. I don't support the death penalty. However, I do hope his victims families felt some sort of justice. He and his cronies were the worst sort of human beings. Your boy Castro will be joining them in their VIP room in Hell very soon.
Posted by: blu at January 02, 2007 11:12 AM (LtzGE)
32
Whose the moral relativist now?
It is an argument if you are saying he is a bad man threatening our life in America when you know full well he is not because you know everything about him because he is your product.
Nice to hear you do not support the death penality.
Posted by: strawman at January 02, 2007 11:33 AM (9ySL4)
33
But I DO support the death penalty, And killing terrorists by the thousands like we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan. And all your booing and hooing is just music to my ears.
Posted by: kyle8 at January 02, 2007 03:01 PM (QGxX6)
34
Just more empty words Shelly, Casca clearly ain't listening.
Posted by strawman on Jan. 2, 2007
I was talking to YOU, asshole.
Posted by: shelly at January 02, 2007 04:20 PM (SLFj+)
35
Gosh Shelly,
How was I supposed to know. The only one around here who consistantly uses "Pejorative sobriquets" and consistantly can't refute facts is old Kashka. Well, that is other than you.
"I perdict we'll kick their asses in the mid terms and pick up seats in both houses" you were heard to say on numerious occasions. Good judge of the American stomach for futile wars.
You guys are in a burning house and you resent the firefighters asking you to leave. But leave you will because when push comes to courage you have none. You are Just rightwing loyalists who as D. Brooks said tonight, are "too willing to swap party loyality for the truth".
You guys have gone down, your president with whom you share the loving,haas gone down and will, if there is a just diety, go to the Hague someday as a war criminal, and history will treat him like the ignorant lying Annelida he is. You all have the blood of 3000 vibrant, young, men and women on your hands. They have died defending and supporting the illconceived, constantly changing wishes of an idiot. An ideologue and his flacks who know as much about the midle east and the people of Islam as a coonhound. Their efforts have come to NOTHING. Not one, for the better, fucking thing. Not one. None. And you still don't weep for them, nor will you look at the battlefield and say enough! There were no terrorists in Iraq, just your run on the mill Islamists who despised America and your generally complacent Iraqi's who did not but certainly do now. Quite a success. Wolfowitz, Pearle have slinked away mumbling about their miscalculations, Powell is humiliated and Rice would still lie for him if he would only smile at her and she is still schleping her rictus face around the world achieving nothing. Somebody should smack her with an aluminum bat because aluminum bats were, in fact, manufactured to be used for one thing.
Posted by: strawman at January 02, 2007 06:55 PM (9ySL4)
Posted by: shelly at January 02, 2007 09:24 PM (SLFj+)
37
We went to Iraq because we were told that the U.S. was in danger of imminent attack from Saddam Hussein because of all those Weapons of Mass Destruction he had. When it was revealed he had none, it was only then that the American People were told that we had invaded Iraq to spread democracy.
Posted by: Steve Bryant at January 03, 2007 08:51 AM (RcKtK)
Posted by: Casca at January 03, 2007 09:07 AM (Y7t14)
39
Steve Bryant,
There was never a threat and everybody who was part of promulgating the threat knew it. It was all lies. Jezzz, who by this this time doesn't know this? Aluminum tubes, mobile weapons trailers, yellow cake (which even it it were true is so fucking distant from a weapon that its laughable), mushroom clouds, anthrax, Al Qaida meetings, etc. none of it was ever true and nobody who said it was believed it was at the time they said it.
We wanted the bastard out, we want the access to the oil and the influence (bases) in the ME. It was all a RISK Game to the cabal and they lost. They were and still are inept, willfully misinformed, monarchists who have sacrificed the principals of our Democracy at the alter of their vainglorious debacle.
Its too bad that some of you think that was all a good thing, that your powerful fear and loathing after 911 was sucessfully pandered to and misdirected into the strawman of Iraq.
Posted by: strawman at January 03, 2007 10:13 AM (9ySL4)
40
Casca wrote: "When we let the Kurds and Shites execute their own tactics, we'll be on the road to victory, because they're ethnically cleanse the Sunnis right the f___ out of town. Then there will be peace."
And SA et al will stand by for this? "Clarity of thought"? However, I do agree with you on the History Channel's Saturday shows, as Washington's General's, while highly abbreviated, was a good lesson in history for most Americans. That includes the segment on Lafayette.
"I have the confidence that the sleeping giant will once again awaken and stomp out the menace that is Islam."
Another person who wants to abolish the Constitution. No clarity of thought here, unfortunately...
"Pejorative sobriquets are the last refuge of those who have lost the argument."
Physician, heal thyself.
Posted by: will at January 04, 2007 12:31 PM (GzvlQ)
A Hero You Should Know
Imagine what this nation would be like if the media replaced all their stories about starlets behaving badly with stories about women like Sgt. Kristi J. Artigue.
“I’ve always been a risk taker,” said Artigue, 23, now a medic with the 141st Medical Company [Connecticut Army National Guard].
On Nov. 10, Artigue called upon the skills learned during her six years of National Guard service -- including a recent deployment to Iraq -- to help save the life of a man who may have drowned.
. . .
“Tom,” a middle-aged man, had suffered a seizure and fallen into a section of the West River. Unable to swim, he struggled to remain above the surface with the help of several civilians and two West Haven police officers. The chain was trying to hang on until the local fire department rescue crew could arrive . . .
Then the life-defining event happened.
“He let loose,” said Artigue, “and went under for one or two seconds. Long enough to know he wasn’t going to be coming up again. And he was moving out farther from the shore toward the center of the river.”
At that point, Artigue let her training take over. The nursing student and Iraq War veteran jumped into the freezing water and swam out about ten feet to where Tom was struggling for air.
“It was too cold to talk,” said Artigue, “but I grabbed his vest and tried to keep him above the water. He grabbed a hold of me and started to pull me down with him, but I was able to drag him by his vest to shore.”
. . . On a cold November day, coming out of cold, moving water, communication was difficult, but Artigue was able to keep Tom talking and conscious until emergency crews arrived.
I am continuously amazed at the quality of people who volunteer to serve our country. Swift water rescue is a very dangerous business. I know I wouldn't have jumped in there.
A future trauma nurse, Artigue plans to use her experiences in the Guard and in Iraq to save as many lives as possible.
“Since Iraq,” she said, “I’ve learned to adapt and overcome. I saw what was happening and I had no option but to get involved because of not only my medical training, but also because of my personal responsibility.
“I will always appreciate my military experience. It’s something I would never give up,” said Artigue.
Posted by: annika at December 20, 2006 08:18 AM (flFuL)
6OMGWTFBBQ!
I can see why Annie chose that epigram now.
Posted by: reagan80 at December 20, 2006 08:20 AM (wkyrW)
7
Only assholes can try to turn this type of heroism into shit.
It is amazing to me how many other idiots follow this line. Just hating Bush makes you want to lose the War on Terror? What don't you understand about the fact that they all want to KILL YOU?
This is not Vietnam; they were here killing us way before we went to the Gulf, and but for Bush, they'd be here now. They will follow us home.
We need to stop this political correctness and start showing them who is boss. Start with killing fuckers hiding in mosks during Ramadan. It will send the new message.
Posted by: shelly at December 20, 2006 08:47 AM (SLFj+)
8
Shelly,
Your are delusional. 5 years, 5 hundred lies and mealy mouthed shuffles and you still believe we are fighting terrorists? We are not and they would have been here now or in the future had they wanted to be or not if they got caught as plenty were prior to 911.
We have spent 500 billion, killed 100 thousand, damaged a country beyond repair and have achieved NOTHING! Not one fucking thing other than draining our coffers and then watching it bulge the pockets of a few corporations with their dicks up Chainey's ass. There is no effective government, no support for any government, internecine warefare that we cannot stop, rebuilding they we cannot effect because of security issues and corruption, and you think this was a good fucking plan and an effective promotion of Americas might, and a wall erected against terrorists? This is what you call a stunning response to the anger and rage of 911? And you, dear deluded man, are content to see it continue and to watch this chimp says shit like "when I said we were winning I meant we would be soon or ought to be, or something like that..... " That man is your leader? You've got some pretty low standards, pal, law degree or not, you are out of your mind, just plain delusional. Why the reporters don't just turn their backs on this asshole and walk out of the room laughing is a mystery to me.
This soldier did a great thing. Not because she was a soldier but because she was brave person. Soldiering didn't change or give her a good character her parents did. I, who you know would not serve, have also jumped into the surf and rescued a drowning man 200 yards out at the Jersey shore. And I never wore a uniform. Go figure. You just do the things that need to be done. Or you don't. Let's not get nuts about what a soldier is or is not. The are brave and they commit rape, they are heroic and they torture not to mention murder their enemy.
Posted by: strawman at December 20, 2006 01:40 PM (9ySL4)
9
Straw, you manage to go miles out of your way to miss the point. For every one rape there are thousands of good acts that go unnoticed by perpetual pessimists like you. For every one act of torture there are untold acts of mercy. This has been the pattern since the days of Washington, and if you would actually study history instead of your stupid talking points, you'd understand that.
And killing the enemy in combat is not murder. Grow a brain. And pick some other forum to drag down; Anni had done nothing here but point out the heroism of one brave soldier, one who stated that her service gave her the tools to commit her act of heroism. It's more than just thought or personality, it's experience, and service did enable her to reach the full potential of her good nature. Which is obviously something the eternally negative like you refuse to understand. Anyway... Anni was doing nothing here but positive commentary, it's you and Blade making the ignorant comments.
Go away. Display your stupidity elsewhere.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at December 20, 2006 03:47 PM (dNphw)
10
Mondohummus,
Killing your enemy in combat is not murder, but, and it is a rare occurance, we have cought some soldiers killing civilians and captured resistance fighters for other purposes and trying to cover up the crime with the details of battle. I know it is rare and I have no doubt that our army is a civilized bunch of killers acting out the wishes of their officers, but it is also true that the whole affair is tainted and so much blood has been spilled with no benefit returned to ANYONE! Our nation or theirs and since it was all predicated on lies and ulterior motives you might, in a more moral climate call the whole thing murder.
She stated that the service gave her the tools: strength, swimming maybe, some medical knowledge, and confidence. It did not, however, make her the type of person who risks life and limb to save another. that, Elmundo, came to her far earlier in her life. I take nothing away from her and do not wish to drag any discussion of her heroism down.
My other comments were directed at those, like Shelly or Casca in the amen corner, who still think there is an ass to kick and that others should die on their behalf trying to do it.
Posted by: strawman at December 20, 2006 04:19 PM (9ySL4)
11
Casca, remind me why we bother to dialogue or engage with these fools. They don't deserve the freedom we provide.
Col. Nathan Jessep was right.
Posted by: shelly at December 21, 2006 06:13 AM (SLFj+)
12
Yes Shelly,
When logic fails ya and and your gravitas won't pull you through go with the ramblings of a psycho killer.
Posted by: strawman at December 21, 2006 07:27 AM (9ySL4)
13
Straw,
You are full of shit if you think she would have dove in the water without the training she had received from the military.
The American response to the Boxing Day tsunami alone is the proof of the good of the military and the training it provides the individual who would have to join an emergency service organization to come close to what the military offers. No other organization can pull off the good things they did - no one but the American military.
I understand your myopic, pessimistic point of view, I used to have it. The I joined the Marine Corps and found out how wrong and stupid that point of view is.
"No better friend, no worse enemy."
Posted by: jcrue at December 21, 2006 01:03 PM (ZDQoM)
14
jcru,
I did not doubt the value of her training and I am sure you are correct that that trainng has proven to be very helpful around the world. I don't know where you see something pessimistic about what I have written. I only quibbled with Annika's wide eyed declaration about how wonderfull the people are that join the military based on such slim data. This gal might be a great swimmer who, unbeknownst to Anni and you, smacks her kids around when she gets angry. And I used myself as an example. I have jumped in as she did, and if you were to ask Casca or Shelly, would not get high marks in Americanism since I would not kill VietCong in a fabricated war like Iraq.
So, let's tone down the bullshit, admit she did something heroic, and leave it at that.
Posted by: strawman at December 21, 2006 01:29 PM (9ySL4)
The Iraq Study Group Report
I'm working through the recommendations now. I've approached the report with an open mind, since it's obvious that the Bush/Rumsfeld plan is not working. However, several descriptive phrases about the Iraq Study Group come to mind as I read. They are as follows:
naïve
not helpful
wishful thinking
too many carrots, no stick
I wish I could say differently. It's almost like a bunch of guys sitting around a table on Saturday night, playing Risk, or Dungeons & Dragons. The panel members imagine a world in which all the players would act rationally if only they talked to each other. With their "New Diplomatic Offensive," they've conjured a mythological universe that sounds nice, but doesn't actually exist.
The Iraq Study Group's major error was their assumption that parties with a strong negotiation position will trade away strength for promises by a weaker adversary. The kind of negotiation that the ISG envisions could only work if the parties shared mutual interests and goals, which is absolutely not the case in Iraq or in the broader Middle East.
Our limited contacts with IranÂ’s government lead us to believe that its leaders are likely to say they will not participate in diplomatic efforts to support stability in Iraq. They attribute this reluctance to their belief that the United States seeks regime change in Iran.
Nevertheless, as one of IraqÂ’s neighbors Iran should be asked to assume its responsibility to participate in the Support Group. An Iranian refusal to do so would demonstrate to Iraq and the rest of the world IranÂ’s rejectionist attitude and approach, which could lead to its isolation. Further, IranÂ’s refusal to cooperate on this matter would diminish its prospects of engaging with the United States in the broader dialogue it seeks.
In other words, ask Iran to help stabilize Iraq, even though at present Iran is actively working to destabilize Iraq — because Iran feels it is in its interest to do so. The ISG suggests that Iran will abandon a key pillar of their regional foreign policy, to avoid becoming "isolated" (though they already are) and to gain a "broader dialogue" with the U.S. (which they don't give a rat's ass about). The penalty for not doing us a favor (against the Iranians self-interest) is to continue with a status quo that the Iranians don't mind at all.
And how does the Iraq Study Group suggest that we persuade Iran to do us that big favor, which the ISG admits they are unlikely to want to do? The report is short on suggestions. But the panelists have no trouble coming up with nice things that Iran can do for us, assuming they can be magically persuaded to ignore their strong negotiating position and act against their own interest.
• Iran should stem the flow of equipment, technology, and training to any group resorting to violence in Iraq.
• Iran should make clear its support for the territorial integrity of Iraq as a unified state, as well as its respect for the sovereignty of Iraq and its government.
• Iran can use its influence, especially over Shia groups in Iraq, to encourage national reconciliation.
• Iran can also, in the right circumstances, help in the economic reconstruction of Iraq.
Again, why would the Iranians want to do any of these things when the status quo in neighboring Iraq suits Iranian purposes so well? A destabilized Iraq is an Iraq vulnerable to Iranian influence. More importantly, a destabilized Iraq also means a weakened United States especially vis-a-vis Iranian nukes.
And of course, my criticism doesn't even reach the fact that Iranian interests are also motivated by a dangerous religious fanaticism that makes their cooperation with the West even more unlikely.
I've seen many objections to the Iraq Study Group's report from several other critics. I can't address that commentary, since I haven't read the whole report. But if the rest of the ISG's recommendations are as unwise as their "New Diplomatic Offensive," and their failure to understand the Iranian problem, I think the panel might have done more harm than good.
Update: And in the "he said what I said, only better..." department, here's a must read digest of the ISG report, by Robert Tracinski. An excerpt:
We should negotiate with Iran and Syria to convince them to help stabilize Iraq, but then James Baker angrily denies that this would mean caving in and allowing Iran to continue its nuclear weapons program, and he angrily denies that it would mean caving in and allowing Syria to re-conquer Lebanon. In other words, he wants to ask Iran and Syria to help us in Iraq--while ruling out the only concessions that might induce them to do so. At the same time, the ISG also rules out any serious military threat that would force Iran and Syria to abandon their current strategy.
This is the pattern of the whole report: to stipulate the achievement of a result, while denying the actual means that might achieve that result.
When you desire a result without enacting the means for achieving it, that's called a "fantasy"which is ironic, considering that James Baker is a dean of the "realist" school of foreign policy.
I almost never say this, but read the whole thing!
1
Baker is a well known Arabist of the Foggy Bottom ilk. he's happily throw Israel to the wolves, and appears to do so with his proposal to have a "regional" meeting without Israel at the table.
Does anyone seriously believe that Israel will hold still for this stuff, and allow Iran to move to the bomb?
I have faith that my President will not buy into this aspect of the proposals; if he does, I will be disappointed and have to reconsider my registration.
On the other hand, if it brings the Democrats closer to unity on the war, there are parts that are palatable. Now that they have "won" the election, they need to take some responsiblity for their actions and words, and if they keep to the obstructionist path, their "victory" (more like, our loss) will be short lived indeed.
In that regard, the report is useful.
By the way, Annie, remember that the Iraqis are Arabs and the Iranians are Persians; Iran could never control Iraq; they just want them weak.
Why do I think that Straw, Will and the rest of the cut-and-run interloper crew will love these proposals?
Posted by: shelly at December 07, 2006 03:28 AM (Eodj2)
2
This report exemplifies a certain bureaucratic mindset found in government that is enamored of "process." I accept that dialogue is important, but, as Annika notes, there has to be some "stick" backing up the negotiation. This reminds me of overweight people who buy the newest diet book, and feel like they have accomplished something. Setting the book on their nightstand feels like they are doing something about their weight, but, obviously, that book means nothing unless they take some positive action that actually effects their weight. If we follow many of this report's recommendations we will be like a fat guy who accumulates more and more diet/self-help books while his weight continues to soar. I think the Administration knows this, and I pray I am right.
Posted by: DBrooks at December 07, 2006 07:23 AM (sF8bT)
3
Was there anyone among you who excected something different from Baker, O'Conner, and a pack of Democrat toadys? Anyone? Anyone?
This is the kind of fine work that got GHWB re-elected. In my heart of hearts, I knew that Rumsfeld had a strategy, and while he was there, I was certain that the administration did too. Now, the water is very muddy.
Amazingly, if I may borrow a phrase from Mr. Limbaugh, the Iraq Surrender Group did not have one military member to lend them verisimilitude. I'll remind the uninformed among you that war is the prosecution of foreign policy by other means. The product of these distinguished folks is koolaid, when we ordered an expensive Cabernet.
Posted by: Casca at December 07, 2006 07:41 AM (Y7t14)
4
Good point, Casca, about not having a military member. When it was raised this morning on Fox News, Cavuto pointed out that a few were former 1st Lts. and there was one Reserve Lt. Col. amongst the 10.
The response was "They might just as well have been veterans from the Spanish-American War; what we needed was high level recent General Staff officers who understand the logistics, tactics and strategy of modern warfare" (or something close to that). Apparently there was consultation with high level folks, but that ain't the same thing as signing on to the conclusions.
The Israelis have already rejected the central premise. Big surprise, there.
Posted by: shelly at December 07, 2006 08:36 AM (Eodj2)
5
I don't understand some of the goals of ISG either. Call me crazy, but I figured that the last thing anyone wanted was more Iranian and Syrian involvement.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at December 07, 2006 08:53 AM (hbe/i)
6
Small point, but GHWB wasn't re-elected; some guy named Clinton knocked him out of the box. Casca must have meant un-elected.
Posted by: shelly at December 07, 2006 09:42 AM (Eodj2)
7
Annika, thanks for taking the time to read and comment on this subject. Your thoughts show substantial discernment. A couple of comments on those thoughts;
- Iran could be put on the hook by at least publicly stating their intentions. If they refuse to acknowledge support for a unified, diverse Iraq, then more weight is put behind the drive for nuclear-related sanctions. If they publicly state they do not support a unified, diverse Iraq, then more weight again for sanctions. If they publicly support Iraq, but continue with clandestine Shia militant activities, then again more weight for sanctions.
- The situation in Iraq has for too long been viewed as primarily a military operation, when we really need a tremendous diplomatic thrust to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis, if it is not too late. The early use of DIME (Diplomatic, Industrial, Military, Economic) effects based operations in a serious Phase IV plan was given extremely short shrift with emphasis almost solely on 'M'; now its time to focus on the others. Hence, the absence of flag level officers could be viewed as a positive for this group. The input of a Lt. Colonel should not be discounted.
My respect for James Baker has grown over the last few years, as he has stepped away from simply being a partisan behind-the-scenes (and sometimes in front) fighter to an independent, principled advocate of examining and taking the right steps, regardless of party platform. IMO, no higher public calling exists.
Posted by: will at December 07, 2006 09:52 AM (GzvlQ)
Posted by: Casca at December 07, 2006 10:32 AM (Y7t14)
10
One would think that then WH CoS Baker's advice to raise taxes, thus leading GHWB to betray his "No New Taxes" pledge, would leap to mind whenever one hears the name James Baker. His name is a curse. He took GHWB from an 80% approval rating into the 40's in a year. I'll never forget '92. I was one of the casualties of Baker's stupidity.
Posted by: Casca at December 07, 2006 10:45 AM (Y7t14)
11
> Begone Fucktard
If one wonders what is meant by a 'reprobate mind', they need look no farther than Casca.
Perhaps he pines for the days when he actually could tell people what to do and expect them to do it. Now he is simply beating his gums...
Posted by: will at December 07, 2006 11:07 AM (GzvlQ)
12- Iran could be put on the hook by at least publicly stating their intentions.
HOW many times do they have to say they want to wipe Israel off the map for you to believe them? For the world to believe them? will, like james baker, can go fuck himself.
...great analysis Annie. Brit Hume had extensive coverage yesterday of Baker's "flip syria" option in the ISG report, which seems equally out of touch with reality as the recommendations on Iran.
I was hoping they might recommend, I dunno, killing more bad guys, but I guess that's too much to hope for from a country that keeps handicapping itself in the fight against Islamic fascism. We have an enemy who routinely use women and children as human shields, and often coerce the latter into the service of operating guerrillas -- and yet it is America's rules of engagement (ROE) that are questioned by the world? Charges of civilian casualties and inappropriate rules of engagement have become a staple of enemy propaganda (and reported front page by us) and this has led to the rules of engagement being modified, as a result U.S. troops have become increasingly hesitant to fire on the enemy. Solving this won't solve everything of course, but it seems we need to start setting some examples of our determination through our superior fire power.
Posted by: Scof at December 07, 2006 11:28 AM (a3fqn)
13
Baker is an anti-semite who should be ignored. The group's comments regarding Israel are so naive and silly that the remainder of the suggestions are automatically suspect. (Why is the answer always about Israel giving up land and caving into human debris?) I am certain though that this report will find ample support among the terrorist community and, of course, among the American-hating community. In fact, based on previous comments, it obviously has.
Posted by: blu at December 07, 2006 11:33 AM (Wn4WF)
14
dont worry Matt, the rules of engagement will change. But the scary thing is that when they do, it will be because we are in really deep shit.
Posted by: annika at December 07, 2006 11:49 AM (zAOEU)
15
There's nothing wrong with Jim Baker's realism in his dealings with the Arab World. For example, it makes sense to team up with Sunni nations like Jordan and Saudi Arabia against Iran. Or with Iraq in the 1980s. The problem is that he's not being realistic in the assessment of Iran's likelihood to deal with us, as Annika has pointed out.
The whole thing reminds me of Kerry's International Conference plan, as if people with divergent interests will just give in for no reason becuase they're talking. The Iranians are talking to us every day in Iraq in a languge called IEDese.
Realism is good to go. We must deal with dictators and dirtbags and our future enemies to deal with our enemies today. But there is a profound unrealism of this particular report, not least, I should imagine, because of the inherent tendency of such a bipartisan commission filed with amateurs like Vernon Jordan and Sandra Day O'Connor.
Posted by: Roach at December 07, 2006 01:38 PM (1BjlW)
16
shELLY,
I have not really had a chance to come to any conclusions about this offering by Baker, Hamilton, et al.
I do not, however, remember ever being a cut and runner. I have argued vociferously that the invasion of Iraq was a bullshit move, engineered by a cabal that was deceitful, scornfull of democracy and ultimately incorrect in their assumptions and inept in their execution.
WHAt to do now that we have induced chaos, destabilized the region, fostered more hatred of America than ever, swelled the ranks of what you refer to as the "bad guys" and in everyway possible degraded the possible foreign policy initiatives and options is a dilema that I can't imagine solving.
I just am not able to pull together the disparate forces, influences, power blocks etc, to come to any conclusion. I am at a loss. I think and have always thougt that the Bush idea of "victory" was laughable. That the loss of life and destruction of property is criminal. And that a thoughtful, detailed, and realistic plan for the invasion and its aftermath was never in evidence.
Cutting and running is different than throwing your hands up in disgust, punishing those who are responsible and retreating from a situation that you have created that will only deteriorate further if you stay. I see no possibility of an acceptable outcome if we remain and no hope of anything better if we go. But if we go no more Americans will die defending a pile of deteriorating shit. And the threat to our nation may decrease by a degree.
Posted by: Strawman at December 07, 2006 02:11 PM (9ySL4)
17
Oh, Shelly, be careful of the "Iran is persian/Iraq is arab" thing. The fact that Syria is arab hasn't stopped Iran from controlling Syria and by extension influencing Lebanon.
Posted by: annika at December 07, 2006 02:38 PM (zAOEU)
18
ah the fucktard has decided to open his sock drawer and let his puppets speak. get a life loser.
Posted by: Casca at December 07, 2006 02:57 PM (Y7t14)
19
Baker is the next to last old jackass that I ever wanted to see again, the last one being Jimmy Carter. That idiot actually tried to hold the old Soviet Union together as it was breaking up, he is the one who was primarily responsible for not getting rid of Saddam 15 years ago when it was much more doable.
Posted by: kyle8 at December 07, 2006 03:50 PM (AtaUM)
20
"swelled the ranks of what you refer to as the 'bad guys'"...does this mean that you *don't* think of them as bad guys? Or do you just dislike the term for some reason?
Posted by: david foster at December 07, 2006 04:15 PM (/Z304)
21
I think it is ironic that it was Democrat, Joe Lieberman, who came out swinging at these ridiculous recommendations. Good to see McCain calling BS on these losers as well. The so-called "Blue Ribbon" group is getting roundly and deservedly heckled by serious people. The light-weights are of course happy to jump on board so as to avoid any critical thinking.
Posted by: blu at December 07, 2006 09:17 PM (swnTx)
22
Waht sone of you folks don't seem to grasp is the concept that this is not Viet Nam.
No Viet Cong followed us home; the Islamic crazies will for sure. They already did before we went to Iraq.
We will all die if we don't kill them all first.
Posted by: shelly at December 07, 2006 09:46 PM (YadGF)
23John "Rubble Doesn't Cause Trouble" Derbyshire's review of America Alone:
-For Shelly-
"After the pungent brilliance of the preceding 200 pages, this all falls a bit flat. And in fact, the reader who has traversed those 200 pages has been having different thoughts from the ones Steyn tries to guide him to. For example: Is that original list of options—submit to, destroy, or reform Islam—really exhaustive? How about we just fence it off : Expel our own Muslims, forbid Muslims to enter our countries, proscribe Islam, and deal with Muslim nations commercially at arm’s length? (They have to sell their oil to someone, or else starve.) Such actions are, of course, way over the line of politically acceptable discourse today; but in five or ten years, after a couple more jihadist atrocities, they will not be."
-My Favorite Part-
"Ah, but Mark, there is rubble, and there is rubble. Of the 13th-century Mongol horde it was said that when they had once bestowed their attentions on a city, you could afterwards ride over the place where that city had stood without your horse stumbling. If the indignities suffered in Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Grozny are the root causes of present-day Islamic terrorism, then I submit that the indignities were insufficiently severe.Armchair warriors like myself are sometimes accused of laboring under the illusion that all the world’s problems can be solved by neat “surgical strikes” on troublesome locations, in which suspect facilities, or persons, are cleanly eliminated with minimal collateral damage.Not guilty! I am, in fact, willing to confess myself a collateral-damage armchair warrior, who would be happy to see us trade in our inventory of smart laser-guided precision munitions for lots and lots and lots of old-style iron bombs, and fleets of great big iron planes to deliver them. Remember those photographs of mid-1945 Berlin, fragments of broken wall sticking up out of vast drifts and dunes of pulverized masonry? Now that’s rubble.Oh, and we won that war."
Posted by: reagan80 at December 08, 2006 05:07 AM (wkyrW)
24
By Sunday, Baker et.al. are deservedly roadkill. Ralph Peters, just said that Baker kept a Military rep off the panel so that the report wouldn't be cluttered with the facts. Love his comments on the report.
Posted by: Casca at December 08, 2006 07:46 AM (Y7t14)
25
And this today from the Associated with terrorists Press: "Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh told thousands of Iranians on Friday that his Hamas-led government will never recognize Israel and will continue to fight for the "liberation of Jerusalem."
Oh, lest we all forget, Iran is holding a "scholarly" conference to determine if the Halocaust, like, you know, ever really happened.
Yeah, James, the problem is obviously Israel. And let's be sure to deal with Iran and Syria. Negotiating with sub-humans makes a lot of sense. Hell, these twits might already by road kill. Hopefully, James will go away. Maybe a little vacation to Saudi Arabia to get a load off, the fucking prick.
Just those two tid bits alone should tell these children just a little about the people with whom we are dealing. You talk to these people. You kill them. BTW, why the fuck doesn't that fat fuck Sadr have a bullet in his pea size brain yet? Now that's a recommendation worth implementing!
Posted by: blu at December 08, 2006 08:28 AM (swnTx)
26
DavidFoster,
Both, the term is childish and misrepresents who they may really be.
Swelling the ranks. The fighting in Iraq is not about stopping the "crazies who would follow us home". Those people are out there and their wish to follow us home has not been diminished by anything we are doing in Iraq nor have their numbers decreased, quite the contrary. So what is the value of this adventure? No increase in our security, no advantage in ME political influence, increasing resistance and violence, an Iraqi government that exists only in the green zone, our armed forces fighting for a goal that no one can properly define, our contractors looting the piggybank, and on and on. Altogether demoralizing.
Tell me where this present policy will lead? What will substantially change for the better in the next year? two years?
Posted by: Strawman at December 08, 2006 09:23 AM (9ySL4)
27
Does anyone else sense a vacuum in this blog? Every once in a while the Surrender Monkeys drop some poop here. As Casca would say, begone, Fucktard.
The Patriot Act never happens unless we are at war. The Surrender Monkeys may think they have the upper hand right now, but our President will hold fast and surely not abandon Israel.
We desperately need another Jihadist atrocity to jar the rest of the fools back to reality. Don't worry, it is coming, no matter how good we are about trying to delay/avert it.
BTW: Does anyone seriously think UBL is still alive? I figure he's sealed in a cave somewhere in Pakistan or Afghanistan.
I hope they parse that Arabist Baker on Sunday. Betcha he won't do O'Reilly.
Posted by: shelly at December 08, 2006 10:14 AM (Eodj2)
28
A flash of brilliance: Today, on Imus, Jeff Greenfield quoted Will Rogers, who, when asked how you curtail submarine warfare told the questioner that you just heat up the ocean and make it intolerable for a submarine to be in it.
When the questioner asked him how you do it, he told him that he is only into policy and not implementation.
Sounds a lot like the Surrender Monkey Report, huh?
Posted by: shelly at December 08, 2006 10:56 AM (Eodj2)
29
At the very least, the ISG has introduced some bipartisan
truth into the equation, which the limp media will
now pick up on.
Sitting down with Iran and Syria should be done, but certainly
not reported/suggested/spoken about.
Without enormous bribes/concessions, Iran and Syria
have no interest in stabilizing Iraq. Who is the ISG kidding.
rz
Posted by: Roy Zuckerman at December 08, 2006 05:17 PM (Yj+Kq)
Bolton Is Out, Who Should Be Next?
John Bolton was one of the best UN Ambassadors we've had. But a minority of Senators decided he was too tough for the job. So he's out.
Apparently, being tough is not an asset for a UN Ambassador. I might have thought otherwise, but we live in a different era now. John Bolton would have fit in better during some earlier time in our nation's history when standing up for his country's interests was something we wanted our ambassadors to do.
No longer. The key requirement for a UN Ambassador these days is likeability. He or she should be well thought of by the international diplomatic corps. And to be well thought of, one needs to make concessions. Well known anti-American Kofi Annan said so himself:
"I think Ambassador Bolton did the job he was expected to do," Annan said, before launching on a discourse about how important it is for ambassadors to "understand that to get concessions, they have to make concessions."
In other words, even if the UN has lost its way, our UN Ambassador should just go along to get along. We need a kinder, gentler, friendlier ambassador who will make everybody feel good.
The question now is, with the above requirements in mind, who should replace Bolton?
The White House gave no immediate signs of its plans for a successor, but people who have been mentioned both inside and outside the administration as possible successors include the American ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad; Philip Zelikow, the State Department counselor; Paula Dobriansky, under secretary of state for democracy and global affairs; and [Senator Lincoln] Chafee.
I'm not sure any of those guys have what it takes to be a good UN Ambassador under the new criteria. What we need is a real wimp, somebody with no agenda, very little intelligence, and someone whose overriding concern is the need to be liked. That's the surest way to get the good old U. S. of A.'s poll numbers back on top, the way they were under Clinton, when Matt Allbright was ambassador and chief doormat.
I have been known to favor celebrities for positions at the UN. Since celebrities have been in the vanguard on the issue of U.S. global likeability, what could be more obvious than that we need a celebrity at the UN Ambassadorship? Almost without exception, celebrities possess the requisite qualities of low intelligence and a desperate desire to be well thought of.
Therefore, I suggest Cameron Diaz and Justin Timberlake as co-ambassadors to the United Nations. The fact that Justin was once in a boy band should be a big advantage in dealing with the hyper-sensitive international diplomatic corps. What could be less threatening than a boy band member? Plus JT is about as dumb as half a stump, so if you team him up with Cameron Diaz, you get an intellectual total that equals about... half a stump. They would make perfect ambassadors under the newer, friendlier, criteria.
1
Cameron and Justin may actually both be smarter than Albright, who, of course, set a standard for a lack of intelligence in that particular position.
Posted by: blu at December 04, 2006 05:57 PM (Wn4WF)
Posted by: Casca at December 04, 2006 06:12 PM (2gORp)
3
Bolton leaving is an absolute shame. Not only will it be more of the same at the U.N. but likely worse than ever. Plus we've just installed the Kofi lover party as majority in Congress. What were we thinking?
Posted by: Mike C. at December 04, 2006 08:14 PM (Eodj2)
4
Rummy's my choice. He can serve for a year with a recess appointment; IN YOUR FACE!!!!!
BTW, I actualy know both Justin and Cameron. They are nice, gentle souls and not consumed with themselves as other certain clebs who are now banned from these pages.
They drive their own cars, no security. They are friendly and nice people. And, YOU should be so dumb, and successful. They manage their careers properly and that takes smarts.
So, back off on this one, Annie. You've got it wrong.
Posted by: shelly at December 04, 2006 08:31 PM (Eodj2)
5
Bolton suffered from an public airing of his vein-popping tirades, which showed that he as ill-suited as the US's leading diplomat. But this was simply one in a long string of abysmal appointments, from Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Hadley, on down the line.
A UN Ambassador must have the social skills to be able to work together with others to achieve the goals of the country, not simply obstinately press the failed New American Century dogma. Bolton represented the arrogant, we-run-the-world approach that has backfired horribly in our faces.
My conservative republican attorney father-in-law, who only obtained his news from FoxNews, NewsMaxx, etc, read "Fiasco" recently, and has gone through a deep soul-searching about this Administration and his
Posted by: will at December 05, 2006 05:03 AM (h7Ciu)
6
Bolton suffered from an public airing of his vein-popping tirades, which showed that he as ill-suited as the US's leading diplomat. But this was simply one in a long string of abysmal appointments, from Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Hadley, on down the line.
A UN Ambassador must have the social skills to be able to work together with others to achieve the goals of the country, not simply obstinately press the failed New American Century dogma. Bolton represented the arrogant, we-run-the-world approach that has backfired horribly in our faces.
My conservative republican attorney father-in-law, who only obtained his news from FoxNews, NewsMaxx, etc, read "Fiasco" recently, and has gone through a deep soul-searching about this Administration and his outlook on political veracity of his once cherished party.
Posted by: will at December 05, 2006 05:04 AM (h7Ciu)
7
To borrow a term, who let this corksucker back in here? Begone fucktard.
Posted by: Casca at December 05, 2006 07:45 AM (Y7t14)
8
Hey Will,
Do you get your talking points straight from the DNC? What a fucking pathetic 6th grade attempt at analysis.
And I'm happy that "Fiasco" is on the family reading list. Wow. Impressive. Really. If you can't tell, I'm really, really impressed. If you did more than repeat DNC rhetoric, you might have heard Hugh Hewitt tear Ricks a new asshole for millions to hear on the public airwaves. Just writing for the WaPo makes his writing suspect.
Do us a favor, Will, and post something you thought of yourself. At least, Straw is original most of the time. You're just a smug, self-involved plagiarizer, who claims to be "moderate" but isn't.
And, BTW, most of the Bolton's colleagues felt like he did a very good job. And, unlike Albright, he actually brought some ideas and an IQ to the game. Why is a doormat like Albright better than a highly intelligent, forceful, patriot like Bolton? She's not - unless you are a professional America hater (read: you).
Save your nonsense for some other place, Will. I'm sure you could go rant along with Koz and the Gang. Are maybe you could get Soros to provide you with some start-up money for your own site where could just post the DNC talking points each day.
Besides, as Casca said of another smug contributor, "your posts uniformly suck.”
Posted by: blu at December 05, 2006 08:57 AM (Wn4WF)
9
I come to the ass-kicking a little late, but better late than never.
I endorse all of Casca's and Blu's views and add one of my own:
Isn't it time to understand that we are in a war to the death???
Go to this site and take an hour to listen to an intelligent human being who knows of what she speaks:
"Because They Hate: A Survivor of Islamic Terror Warns America"
http://www.heritage.org/Press/Events/ev092706a.cfm
After you've listened to Brigitte, tell us what you then actually think (not what Soros says). If you do good, we may get off your ass.
Posted by: shelly at December 05, 2006 09:13 AM (0Co69)
10
Celebrities?
There's always Gweneth. She thinks about America when prompted to.
Kevin
Posted by: Kevin Kim at December 05, 2006 10:05 AM (1PcL3)
Posted by: annika at December 05, 2006 10:06 AM (zAOEU)
12
Pardon the Konglish spelling-- I meant "Gwyneth."
Shelly, since you're so plugged in-- do you know anyone who could use the services of a professional cellist? My little brother's a fantastic player.
Kevin
Posted by: Kevin Kim at December 05, 2006 12:10 PM (1PcL3)
13
Tell him to get a job and an agent.
On the other hand, Casca amy need him after Florida beats up OSU.
Posted by: shelly at December 05, 2006 12:19 PM (0Co69)
14
Blu,
You're in dittohead, broadcast mode; that's one reason the hammer came down Nov 7th. Smug, cocky, arrogant Republicans felt they could jerk the chains of the Religious Right to come vote for their scare scenarios. Their fantasy fell down around them when too many scandals broke the camel's back; Americans chose another party, rightly or wrongly, to lead the country.
"smug self-involved plaigerizer". On which blog did you find that phrase, and how do you apply it here, specifically?
Bolton an "intelligent, forceful, patriot"? One out of 3 isn't bad, but anyone can be a thug, so I hardly see that as a desirable attribute for America's main diplomat. And I'd like to see your source about "most of his colleagues" saying he did a swell job.
As far as following DNC talking points, I don't even visit their site, nor do I hang around with party hacks of either side. Again, my ultimate choice for President '08 would be John McCain, who, the last time I checked, is not a Democrat. YMMV.
It's time that some here wake up, step out of their little worlds, and see that Republican bravado no longer gets them attention, beyond the closeted few that refuse to come out.
But Rush and others have a paycheck to collect, so they will rally the ever decreasing ranks of the faithful. They'll still "tear new assholes" in the minds of the dittoheads, but they know that they've taken a big hit. But it beats the alternate of having to get real, productive jobs.
Posted by: will at December 05, 2006 06:50 PM (h7Ciu)
15
tage.org/Press/Events/ev092706a.cfm
Shelly et al,
I'll accept the challenge if you all would read Fiasco, assuming you don't fear the book or the author. Deal?
Posted by: will at December 05, 2006 06:52 PM (h7Ciu)
16
Fiasco received a favorable review in NRO. If i didn't have so much reading to do already, I'd pick it up.
Posted by: annika at December 05, 2006 07:21 PM (oantJ)
17
Annie:
51.8%.
Think about it. Save your reading for after the Bar.
I want to swear you in!
Posted by: shelly at December 05, 2006 07:35 PM (Eodj2)
18
WTF would I do with a Cellist? I'm not getting married again. As for your gator taunts. The betting window is still open beyotch.
Posted by: Casca at December 05, 2006 07:53 PM (2gORp)
19
Why, to play "Hearts and Flowers" after the upset.
G_d knows I've been playing it all week.
It's gonna be hard to get interested in beating Michigan...wondering which team will show up from Figueroa Tech.
Posted by: shelly at December 06, 2006 12:26 AM (0Co69)
20
Tressel will not be caught unprepared. Not at this point in time with this team. The bigger the game, the more prepared he is.
You have a problem Shelly. I would not be betting the Trojans under any circumstance. UofM has been disrespected by the BCS, and they have something to prove. They're as big, as strong, and as fast as the Buckeyes. SC will be lucky if the center can roll the ball between his legs when they're done with him. Booty will be running for his life all day.
Posted by: Casca at December 06, 2006 07:37 AM (Y7t14)
21
Y'know, after Oregon State and UCLA I'm just not sure which team will show up in Pasadena.
It is not a house of pleasant memories for us.
On the other hand, USC has some great talent and if they show up with the team that kicked the crap out of Notre Dame, who knows?
I hope the center can do better than roll the balls. I think that is an OSU specialty.
The snapper is Will Collins, son of my good buddy John. He's had a good year so far.
Posted by: shelly at December 06, 2006 03:25 PM (SLFj+)
22
I KNOW you don't know what to do. You're in the doldrums along with Petey. Leadership is the other side of the coaching coin. UofM has everything to prove. USC has to be shellshocked. What's Pete going to say to these guys to get them up for this game? Play hard or they'll kick our ass all day long? For Michigan, this is about respect. This will be a VERY physical game.
Posted by: Casca at December 07, 2006 07:54 AM (Y7t14)
It was a solemn pledge, repeated by Democratic leaders and candidates over and over: If elected to the majority in Congress, Democrats would implement all of the recommendations of the bipartisan commission that examined the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
But with control of Congress now secured, Democratic leaders have decided for now against implementing the one measure that would affect them most directly: a wholesale reorganization of Congress to improve oversight and funding of the nation's intelligence agencies. . . .
. . .
"I don't think that suggestion is going anywhere," said Rep. C.W. Bill Young (R-Fla.), the chairman of the Appropriations defense subcommittee and a close ally of the incoming subcommittee chairman, Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.). "That is not going to be their party position."
It may seem like a minor matter, but members of the commission say Congress's failure to change itself is anything but inconsequential. In 2004, the commission urged Congress to grant the House and Senate intelligence committees the power not only to oversee the nation's intelligence agencies but also to fund them and shape intelligence policy. The intelligence committees' gains would come at the expense of the armed services committees and the appropriations panels' defense subcommittees. Powerful lawmakers on those panels would have to give up prized legislative turf.
. . .
Now Democrats are balking, just as Republicans did before them.
The decision will almost certainly anger commission members, as well as families of victims of the Sept. 11 attacks, many of whom have pressed hard for implementation of the recommendations.
"The Democrats pledged to implement all the remaining 9/11 reforms, not some of them," said former representative Timothy J. Roemer (D-Ind.), who served on the commission.
Carie Lemack, whose mother was in one of the jets that hit the World Trade Center, echoed that sentiment: "It wasn't a Chinese takeout menu, the 41 recommendations. You have to do all of them."
If you want my opinion, consolidation of oversight is not a good idea. I like redundancy. I was against the creation of an "Intelligence Czar," too. But the Democrats aren't backing away from this promise for policy reasons, it's more politics-as-usual, and juvenile back-scratching.
On an unrealted note, why is it that I can get no information from the media about what crawled up Pelosi's butt to make her dislike Jane Harman and Steny Hoyer so much? I know it's personal, but I've looked far and wide and there doesn't seem to be any investigative reporter willing to investigate this question.
Pelosi's beef with Hoyer goes back to her Maryland days, when she was the receptionist and Hoyer was the chief gofer for Senator Brewster in the 60's. I know there must be some interesting anecdotes, which would explain the animosity she's held onto for decades. But the media is hush hush.
And what's the deal with Jane Harman? I know she's not considered dovish enough, but I do suspect there's a personal vendetta there too. Pelosi is well known for holding grudges (and to be fair, suddenly letting go of grudges too), but nobody wants to dig into this story.
If anybody has seen anything interesting, send me a link. I'm just interested in political gossip is all.
1
haha, this is just sweeet
I have to use this to torture my liberal brother. In return I give you:
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-harmanpelosi21nov21,1,7489875,full.story?coll=la-headlines-politics&ctrack=1&cset=true
Personally I think Pelosi is just trying to piss off the Congressional Black Caucus.
Posted by: Stew at November 30, 2006 09:24 PM (swd4s)
2
Well Stew, that article was notable for saying absolutely nothing. How many times do I have to hear the standard Pelosi bio? And nobody wants to talk about the rift for fear that Pelosi might get mad? Does this sound like a nice lady or what? They cant even get people to say anything about her "on background." Pelosi must be worse than Torquemada, I'm telling you. There's more to this story than we'll ever know, kind of like the Paris Hilton/Nicole Ritchie fight.
Posted by: annika at November 30, 2006 10:27 PM (oantJ)
3
Annika,
I think you are being disingenuous: The draft has no traction in either party and is a non-starter. TO elevate it to anything more is sour grapes. Furthermore you interest in the non-essentials of Pelosi's back story(s) is bordering on becoming an obsessional disorder. I, who know very little about her and am no real fan of the Dem's but recognize that they are less repugnant than the corrupt RW religo-fascist scum that have been ineptly trying to run this country, will wait and see as things develop rather than view all she has done and what she might do with your jaundiced eye.
Posted by: Strawman at December 01, 2006 06:32 AM (9ySL4)
4
"corrupt RW religo-fascist scum"
Hmmmm, last I checked there have been no Wacco's under Bush's watch. And no unarmed females are being shot by snipers for having unorthodox racist views, which, BTW, are protected under the 1st Amendment - that's the one you and yours CLAIM to care about but really don't. Children aren't being ripped from their homes by jack-booted thugs and sent away to communist terror states. And, unlike Clinton, I doubt you'll see well-known criminals and terrorist being pardoned by Bush. The Clinton admin much more than this one earned the title facsist. They had no problem simply killing Americans with whom they disagreed. Oh, and not that it's relevant to this particular discussion, but the "corrupt RW religo-fascist scum" have never sold military/technological secrets to China in return for campaign money. Just sayin'.....
Posted by: blu at December 01, 2006 04:26 PM (Wn4WF)
5
They don't call her the "Wicked Witch of the West" for nuthin'.
She will only hold the disparite groups of the Demo coalition together with one skill - abject fear. She's pissing folks off already...
This wil surely be a "Do Nothing Congress".
Winner here?
George W. Bush. Stand back and watch his numbers rise as he slams the Congress for doing nuthin'.
Posted by: shelly at December 01, 2006 06:04 PM (YadGF)
6
Blu,
WACO? I guess you feel that was the state supressing religious freedom?
True, Bush hasn't pardoned known criminals. He chooses to promote them to higher office or invite them to the WH to offer advice. What did we hear Abramoff saying this week about Ralph Reed? "god, he's just a bad version of us".
And is it not totalitarianism when the government attempts to rule what goes on inside a persons body? THe chinese legislate how many babies you may have and the RR would do the same should you conceive in error.
I think state troopers all wear jack boots, Blu. ANd the only people being ripped from their homes and sent to prisons in terror states are Islamic American citizens; without charges, without indictments, without that good ole freedom the terroists hate us so much for havin. What a farce.
And lets not forget the 50 rounds fired at this fellow in NY last week, did you know that two of the cops were participants in the WACO debacle?
And lastly, congrats to the Fidel and RAul on the 50 anniversity of the formation of the revolutionary army of Cuba. "Cuba si, Yankee No!"
Posted by: Strawman at December 02, 2006 09:04 AM (9ySL4)
7And lastly, congrats to the Fidel and RAul on the 50 anniversity of the formation of the revolutionary army of Cuba. "Cuba si, Yankee No!"
Yeah, where was your paramour Fidel today? Answer: he's already taken the dirtnap. The commie shitbags are keeping it silent in a futile attempt to thwart the tsunami of capitalism that will rescue that dismal backwater.
VIVA LA CAPITALISM!
Posted by: Radical Redneck at December 02, 2006 09:33 AM (cOyko)
8
Yep RR,
that dismal backwater that that has more doctors per capita than we do, has lower infant mortality and higher literacy than we do, a school system that doesn't have to battle religious half wits that want to teach creationism, allows women full control of their reproductive systems, has better baseball with out the 100's of millions and drugs to spur the players on, and best of all when ignorant trash like you,a man who uses a moniker that speaks volumes or maybe that should be un-volumes, goes into a library they don't torture him if he can't produce a photo ID. Sit at the table you dolt and try to lean how to read: thinking, and sex with bipeds will soon follow.
Posted by: Strawman at December 02, 2006 11:12 AM (9ySL4)
9
Straw always conveniently forgets that they will kill you in Cuba if you dare disagree with their lovely government. He "forgets" because like most hard lefties, he doesn't care. The dirty secret of the left is that they believe it's ok to kill a few reactionaries in order to perpetuate the higher ideal of socialism. And that's why this sick ideology is responsible for more deaths than any other in human history.
Then of course he throws out the lies and propoganda about having more doctors per capita, better literarcy....blah, blah, blah. Wow, did Fidel send you that data himself, Straw? Memo to Straw: It's not true. Don't you get it? IT'S A TOTALITARIAN REGIME THAT RULES BY TERROR. They lie each and every day in order to stay in power.
p.s. Hey, did you notice your boy Hugo is going to try and get rid of term limits? How long before he decides it would be better for "the poor" - the poor are always the pawns for the left-wing butchers - that he be President for life? "We don't need elections. The people have decided." You've devoted your life to a sick, illiberal, and totoally depraved worldview, Straw. The men you celebrate are the worst history has to offer.
p.p.s. Better baseball? LOL. True, they have some nice players. And their team that plays together consistently might be able to beat some MLB All-Stars that are thrown together. But, they aren't going to beat our best team. (Did you even play sports, Straw? Given your politics and your anger, I suspect you got your ass-kicked a lot growing up. I've noticed that the unhappy, the weak, the ugly, and the dumb are often liberals. Why is that?)
Posted by: blu at December 02, 2006 12:06 PM (Wn4WF)
10
It looks like Straw is right. Judging from these pics, the Cubans have figured out a way to provide socialized healthcare without the long waiting lists.
Posted by: reagan80 at December 02, 2006 01:11 PM (wkyrW)
11
"goes into a library they don't torture him if he can't produce a photo ID."
Rest easy my dear anencephelic, Mother Haldol™ will free you soon.
What a freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak!
Posted by: Radical Redneck at December 02, 2006 04:46 PM (cOyko)
12
"I've noticed that the unhappy, the weak, the ugly, and the dumb are often liberals."
Especially the dumb. And weak (minded).
Posted by: Radical Redneck at December 02, 2006 04:49 PM (cOyko)
13
Maybe, so that you can conceal it better, Palpatine had his lightsabre in two halves, one inch each sleeve, with the the one that we were treated to within the close-up containing the particular blade-generating mechanism and a good enough power cell for any minute or two of activation, with the other half, which posesses a larger power cell for any more prolonged engagement and appears just like the back of Anakin's sabre being attached eventually the location where the camera was off Palpatine.
Posted by: diablo 3 gold at December 14, 2012 01:20 AM (o0Ex8)
A Hero You Should Know
On October 16, 2006, Army CW3 Lori Hill became the latest female pilot decorated with the Distinguished Flying Cross (the first was none other than Amelia Earhart).
Back in March in Iraq, Chief Warrant Officer 3 Lori Hill, with the 2nd Squadron, 17th Cavalry Regiment, was piloting her Kiowa Warrior when the lead chopper came under heavy fire. She drew the fire away, simultaneously providing suppressive fire for the troops engaged with the enemy on the ground.
A rocket-propelled grenade hit her, damaging the heloÂ’s instrumentation, but instead of focusing on her predicament, she established communication with the ground forces and continued to provide them with aerial weapon support until the soldiers reached safety.
As she turned her attention to the aircraft, which was losing hydraulic power, the helo took on machine-gun fire, a round crashing into one of HillÂ’s ankles. Still, with a damaged aircraft and an injury, she landed at Forward Operating Base Normandy, saving her crew and aircraft.
For her actions she was presented the Distinguished Flying Cross by Vice President Richard Cheney at Fort Campbell, Ky., on Oct. 16.
“[It] was a once-in-a-lifetime thing to get the award and then have the vice president come and award it to you,” she said. “It’s just incredible for any soldier.”
Recalling that day in March, Hill reflected, “I was actually just glad I didn’t pass out and very happy I was able to help the ground guys out, and get our helicopter down safely on the ground.”
You won't see Chief Hill's face while your waiting in the grocery checkout line, and Lori Hill may not be a household name, but it should be.
Posted by: gcotharn at November 30, 2006 12:22 PM (xq9zD)
2
As a very small plane pilot who has occasionally struggled with something as mundane as the crosswind landing, I'm constantly amazed by these folks in the military, their bravado and skill. Hats off to Chief Hill.
Posted by: Mike C. at November 30, 2006 04:32 PM (Eodj2)
3
Color me impressed. I hadd a rollicking debater going at my site about whether women belonged in combat or not.
I say, absolutely!
I know I'd want this woman in combat when the chips were down!
Posted by: Mark at November 30, 2006 06:52 PM (qFpLU)
Posted by: Mark at November 30, 2006 06:53 PM (qFpLU)
5
I booked driving lessons for my daughter today. I asked for a female instructor. The owner told me he seldom has female instructors who last longer than two years because "you have to have nerves of steel." Obviously, having control over nerves isn't a problem for Lori Hill.
Posted by: Joules at November 30, 2006 07:20 PM (u4CYb)
6
Please join the Wednesday Hero blogroll at my blog. Stories like this need to be shared!
Posted by: Greta at December 01, 2006 09:32 AM (yy954)
7
Gee, I wonder, given the craven nature of those who run our armed services publicity department and their desperation for any good story to counter the sorry state of affairs in Iraq, if this gal will turn out to be another hero on the order of Jessica Lynch?
Posted by: Strawman at December 01, 2006 02:55 PM (9ySL4)
Fracas At Powell
This is what happens when our Universities' social science departments are filled with former radicals.
According to an extremely biased article in the Daily Bruin,
Mostafa Tabatabainejad, a UCLA student, was repeatedly stunned with a Taser and then taken into custody when he did not exit the CLICC Lab in Powell Library in a timely manner. Community Service Officers had asked Tabatabainejad to leave after he failed to produce his BruinCard during a random check at around 11:30 p.m. Tuesday.
I think the UC police didn't handle the situation the best way possible either. They should have carried the guy outside as soon as he was handcuffed and then waited for backup. Using a taser to get him to comply with their orders was not going to work, since it was clear the guy was bent on creating a scene.
But the responsibility for this whole ugly incident lies solely with Mr. Mostafa Tabatabainejad. If you don't have your ID card, go back to your room and get it. If they call the police on you, apologize politely and leave the library. Otherwise, they might just taser your idiot ass.
Plus, when students are indoctrinated by professors who are former radicals constantly reliving the glory days of the 60's in class (I went to Berkeley, remember) it's pretty hard not to view all police interactions as if we lived in Franco's Spain. But we don't.
Update: h/t to TBinSTL for this appropriate PSA, by Chris Rock.
1
This story immediately made me think of this bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCCjFbFXn8
Posted by: TBinSTL at November 19, 2006 11:58 PM (MSiPb)
2
A perfect example of hesitating to use appropriate force leading to the use of excessive force. If they had not tried to bandy words with the fuck, and simply tackled, cuffed, and drug him away when he wouldn't comply. There would have been no tazing.
Posted by: Casca at November 20, 2006 12:59 AM (2gORp)
3
Screw the taser, they should have beat the fark out of him like Rodney King.
Posted by: kyle8 at November 20, 2006 03:49 AM (Q+SJk)
4
Apparently the UCPD have greater latitude in using the taser against passive resisters than the LAPD or Sheriff's Office do. And they used it in "drive-stun" mode, which apparently isn't as painful or debilitating as then they shoot the barbs into you and give you the full treatment. I think people are overreacting to the connotations of "taser."
Posted by: Jim Treacher at November 20, 2006 06:43 AM (cYioa)
5
You're right Jim. He shoulda been floppin' like a fish, and trying to breath, not screaming. Still, it's hard to breath/scream with a knee in the back of your neck, and your face in the dirt.
Posted by: Casca at November 20, 2006 09:21 AM (Y7t14)
6
i thought the same thing Casca. i've never been tasered, obviously, but i heard you really can't move for a long time. The fact that he was able to scream like that seems to indicate that he was not immobilized as some later claim.
Posted by: annika at November 20, 2006 09:38 AM (xNQf4)
7
Annika,
Another example of dumb ass police or whatever these sadists are, not applying the basic rules that they were, more than likely, taught. The man posed no threat to anybody or property. His infraction was disobeying a rule about ID, not committing a crime. (I wonder if his name and picture were available on the library computer.) Nevertheless, refusing to leave to get ID, while an infraction of the rules is, without some additional evidence that he didn't belong there, or was acting erratically or was engaged in suspicious behavior, is not justification for violent eviction. If he didn't leave when asked, an officer should have stayed with him while his partner went for civilian authority to intervene or his shift commander. Since the "police" are the agents of the school and presumably have the best interest of the school and its students in mind, the school admin should have made the next decision: Send him to get his card, take him at his word or another simple, civil, appropriate action. If all else fails it is the call of the administrator to have the police remove him or not from the premises. Two officers certainly are capable of cuffing him and walking or dragging him out donÂ’t you think? As I said, no harm to property or another student or facility member had occurred or was imminent. Why use force? Patience and procedure and calm will almost always solve matters like this without violence. With what I saw and heard on the video, the school has exposure in a law suit. To say everything that happened to him, since it stemmed from his bad act, is his fault is too simplistic; nor does it excuse the possibly illegal acts that may have followed.
Annie, I wonÂ’t even address your remarks about this encounter being the result of a liberal hiring bias by the university. I hope you were kidding.
Posted by: Strawman at November 20, 2006 10:28 AM (9ySL4)
8
Typical, Straw: The individual has no responsibility for his actions. His actions and your ridiculously moronic response above are also typical of the Left's total lack of respect for authority or institutions. What if everybody decided, as this jack*ss did, that rules don't matter? What if everybody decided it was OK to incite violence against law enforcement? (For now on, if I don't like a rule or a law, f*ck it, I'm breaking that rule/law. I've got rights, ya know!!!!! Man, I wish I was a minority so I could yell discrimination when the authorities decided that I need to abide by the law.)
Any sane, civilization-loving, fair-minded person who saw or heard about this incident understands that it was totally and absolutely brought on by that moron. To argue any differently is simply more proof of a lack of seriousness and a lack of respect for our culture.
Posted by: blu at November 20, 2006 10:53 AM (w2RJn)
9
Blu,
He absolutly has responsibility and he did instigate the event by not having his required ID card but and I know this is a hard concept for you to grasp, the ends do not justify the means. We are a civilized society, or at least tell the rest of the world we are. The students in Tienemen Sq. were in violation of rules and brought the violence upon themselves, right Blu. Or is it different when a totaltarian govt. engages in violence against its constitutients difffernt than a "free" society doing the same? You wept for the chinese, why not this guy? He did not willfully break a rule, remember that word Blu, because he did not break the law, he then refused( I have not read an account of his first response or the police's first response, have you?) it seems, to comply with an order.
He may be disrespectful of authority and may not like taking responsibility for his behavior, but the police are not in the business of administering moral and ethical lessons, just enforcing the rules which they could have done in any number of ways that would not have resulted in bodily harm, mayhem, and a complete upset to all those who were in the vicinity. If you had been working late on a paper that night which way would you have liked for this event to have gone? A cop standing with the guy, talking to him about the consequences of his actions while more authority arrived and possibly walking him out or the school waiving the ID card rule to preserve order, or with adaquite force firmly escorting him out the door.
Do not make judgements about my philosophy of life or distane for your precious rules, just judge me by what would have ben the outcome if my strategy had been employed. What WORKS is what is important, not the sophists complaint of "what if everybody........ergo the end of civilization"
Only those with no faith in humankind and the strength of the values they hold dear worry about such nonsence.
Posted by: Strawman at November 20, 2006 11:24 AM (9ySL4)
10
Nice try, Straw....but I've seen the video. Have you?
He was given so many opportunities to get up and leave and do what he was told it is nearly impossible to count. He purposely refused, obviously hoping to start an altercation. In a beter world, the students would have supported the police and ignored him. Your cute little scenario where the cops talk to him and tell him about possible consequenes all happened. He refused to comply for several minutes. Fuck him.
And what sort of a morally and ethically challenged person would ever compare the childish antics of a pampered, America-hating leftist moron to the heroes of Tienemen Sq?
Posted by: blu at November 20, 2006 12:06 PM (w2RJn)
11
Blu,
Lawbreakers are law breakers Blu. Nicht Wahr? Not hero's unless you are willing to allow that from time to time one may break laws they don't like asserting their higher moral or ethical authority and of course threaten the government with anarchy and worse. Sort of like the standards we held the German people to after the war.
Herr Muller: Yes, I saw them dragging the Jew down the hall and repeatedly applying electrical shocks to his body.
DA: Had you seen or heard the offense committed by the Jew?
Herr Muller: Yes, he did not haff his papers with him.
DA: Do you know the Jew later died from heart failure, Herr Muller?
Herr Muller: Got sie dank!! That is terrible.
DA: Did you, Herr Muller, when you saw the police dragging and torturing this man consider that you might come to his assistance?
Herr Muller: Nein, never! Herr Prosecutor, I was ordered to stand at a distance and remember, Herr Prosecutor, he did not haff his papers! Our country is based on the rule of law and we cannot tolerate those who would abuse and mock it. Nein, it will mean the end of us if we don't act with strength against these people. They wish to tear our society down, these agents of Stalin.
DA: Herr Muller, if this man had been your son or wife would you have tried to protect them from the Gestapo?
Herr Muller: Oh, ya, certainly I would have tried. Of course, thatÂ’s' another story, I would not let my son endure torture & brutality just for not haffing his papers. This would not be richtig; he is not a Jew, not a communist, Her Prosecutor he luffs Germany.
In a better time in our country, Blu, the students would have overpowered the police and held them accountable for their needless brutality. Just as any passerbyÂ’s might have done the same on behalf of Rodney King
Posted by: Strawman at November 20, 2006 01:43 PM (9ySL4)
12
Did you really just compare that pathetic, spoiled brat to a Jew in the Halocaust? Really?
That's stunning. Beyond contemptible. I'll let somebody else address that sickening, vile post.
Posted by: blu at November 20, 2006 03:33 PM (w2RJn)
13
"Another example of dumb ass police or whatever these sadists are, not applying the basic rules that they were, more than likely, taught."
Wrong.
Posted by: Jim Treacher at November 20, 2006 04:04 PM (cYioa)
14
Jim,
Did we just read the same instructions?
Once in handcuffs, what was the risk of injury to others?
What was the ugency of the matter?
How serious was the offense?
I read the instructions and see no point at which the taser should be used in situation at Powell.
Posted by: Strawman at November 20, 2006 05:50 PM (9ySL4)
15
"I read the instructions and see no point at which the taser should be used in situation at Powell."
Imagine that.
Posted by: Jim Treacher at November 20, 2006 07:05 PM (cYioa)
16
Sigh.
Were the police excessive? I don't know, but I don't think so. The video doesn't show what's going on at the beginning. You can hear them giving directions and orders, and you can hear shouts of "get your hands off me." Sounds like resisting to me.
This starts with dude Rule #1 for dealing with the police: "Don't argue." Even Chris Rock knows that. (Great PSA, BTW.) If a cop says, "Get up!" then you get the fuck up. If you think he gave you an unlawful order, then pursue your civil remedies later of face the (often physical) consequences.
The dude wasn't supposed to be there. He didn't have his ID. Someone in the school administration already made the decision to call the police. The police responded to the call and investigated, as police are supposed to do. The guy couldn't show any ID and the police acted to enforce the rule that says (apparently): "No ID, get out."
It's a minor infraction, absolutely, but the guy refused. You can hear him refusing, you can hear him shouting "get your hands off me." At that precise moment he escalated the crime from simple infraction to California Penal Code 148, resisting arrest and/or interfering with the duties of a police officer, a misdemeanor.
At that moment the police can either: Walk away (from the incident and their duty), continue to negotiate (for compliance with the directive), or make the arrest (either through negotiation or physical force). I really don't know how long they talked to the guy, so I'll grant you that a few more minutes talking might have solved the entire matter.
They moved to remove the guy. He resisted, verbally and physically (passive non-compliance counts). The fight was on.
A taser is used to avoid physical force, i.e., blunt trauma weapons, i.e., fists and batons. All things considered, it's better than the ass whupping that usually comes along. Ask Rodney King. If the taser had worked on him (it didn't), the rest of the beating might never have happened. (And no, I'm not justifying the beating, just making a point: Which do you prefer, a brief shock or broken bones?)
No, I've never been tazed. Yes, I know people who have. They're cops. They are defensive tactics instructors. Cops get tazed before they're allowed to carry and use the taser. None of them screams like this idiot. They do fall to the ground, promptly get back up, and promise never to give the trigger man an excuse to zap them again.
From what that video shows, audio and video, the cops did fine.
Posted by: bob at November 20, 2006 08:12 PM (yq7MM)
Posted by: reagan80 at November 22, 2006 09:53 AM (ULWF4)
18
Visiting on recommendation of the Big Hominid...interesting post and great vids....
as for the argument at hand...First of all, the video is incomplete fuzzy at best and we are all missing vital information about what happened in the beginning so it's difficult to make a fair judgement about the actions of the officers. Having spent some time as a lowly security guard and as a doorman in a busy nightclub I have had experience with tasers and I have been tased. The old style tasers will give you a good shock and knock you to the ground, it all depends on the voltage of the weapon and what part of the body is tased. This guy was obviously juiced up or just got his adrenalin going enough have the taser effect him less than it might effect a more docile victim (who obviously would not need to be tased at all). He was so far out of line he probably deserved a zap or two to get his attention. The police repeatedly told him to get up right after they tased him...STUPID!!! Those things make your legs feel like jello, he likely could not get up as quickly as they wanted him to and then they kept tasing him when he wouldn't comply...duh.
I have to agree with the original post. The guy was obviouly looking for trouble and he found it. The campus cops should have physically carried him outside after they tased him rather than telling him to get up over and over again and tasing him against the protests of other students. If he was handcuffed it wouldn't have been that hard for 4 cops (i saw at least that many) to drag or carry him outside to wait for the local cops to haul him off to jail for any number of offenses from disturbing the peace or inciting a riot (which as one poster noted might have happened in a darker time)failure to comply. Too bad there isn't a law against just plain stupidity cuz they would have to lock this guy up and throw away the key.
Posted by: fencerider at November 23, 2006 07:54 AM (mcr7E)
The Old Bait And Switch
I wonder how many people who voted Democrat knew that reinstating the draft was on the Democrat's agenda.
I consider myself pretty well informed politically, I listened carefully to all the Democratic talking points, I'm on a few Democrat mailing lists. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention, but I don't seem to remember any Democrat mentioning that bringing back the draft was going to be their first order of business once they got elected.
Maybe I'm wrong here, but it seems to me if the Democrats had mentioned that they wanted to bring back the draft once they got control of Congress, they would not have gotten control of Congress!
1
That pisshead doesn't even have his priorities right. Rangel is more interested in class warfare here than fighting jihadists overseas.
Well, I guess we could look forward to this anyway when the liberals' economic policies ultimately fail....
The specter of unemployment is haunting every politician, economist, industrialist, and labor leader. Mr. Dewey said that he saw the solution in heroic production of gadgets, but as to the immediate means, was silent. Mr. Roosevelt announced that everything was planned and that no one need worry, but his details were nebulous. Mr. Truman thinks that there is magic in the phrase "full employment," but one suspects that his disappointment at Congressional refusal to put his whole program to the test is not unmixed with relief........One of the most obvious palliatives for unemployment is to push a large number of young men into an expanded CCC or an expanded army on a subsistence basis and so make room for others in regular employment - one of the obvious palliatives and one of the worst.-Russell Kirk on the Draft
Posted by: reagan80 at November 20, 2006 12:56 AM (ybfP0)
2
Annika,
I think this is a unilateral piece of policy initiative on the part of Rangle to, as Raygun has pointed out, increase our awarness of the cost of the criminal action in Iraq and to also highlight who's sons and daughters are fighting it. Not the Bush twins nor two to three hundred children and grand children of our legislators.
Posted by: Strawman at November 20, 2006 07:39 AM (9ySL4)
3
Strawman,
I'm sick your ridiculouls need to point out the Bush's daughters are not in the military. It's not relevenat. It's stupid. You see, Einstein, our military is voluntary. Look up the word. Learn it. Understand it. Use it in a sentence. And there are members of the US Congress with sons and daughters in the military. You couldn't even get that right.
Rangle is the worst sort of propagandist. And he is a racist pig. He'd like us all to believe that every soilder is a "person of color" despite the fact that the US military is perhaps the most integrated institution in America.
Posted by: blu at November 20, 2006 10:28 AM (w2RJn)
4
Rangel represents a side of the Democratic Party which is sees the main event as conflict between groups within American society. Such people do not believe in the reality of external threats; nor are they interested in Americans working together to solve real problems. It's always about creating fault lines between groups of Americans and then doing everything possible to deepen and widen these fault lines.
Posted by: david foster at November 20, 2006 10:54 AM (SpkYG)
5
Blu-
Though you are addressing a provocateur, I am in complete agreement at the hypocrisy of the "Bush daughters not in the military" talk.
Bush' daughters are not running for office, and the U.S. is not a Kingdom. It's ludicruos to insinuate that Bush' daughters should join the military as some type of symbolism.
Further, his daughters, as all military persons, are of age to make their own decisions. To imply their parents should control their decisions is to infantilize the Bush daughters, as well as all military persons. It is to paint them as victims, instead of cognizant adults.
Bush himself joined the military, which is more than 99% of such critics did.
The weakness and stupidity of this attack offends me. My 8 year old nephew could do better. Either attack Bush more effectively, or step away from the keyboard.
Posted by: gcotharn at November 20, 2006 02:48 PM (Rhyyb)
6
Well Blu,
You too do seem to be rising to the bait my big mouthed friend. I don't give a fuck if the bush girls don fatigues or not. The hypocracy of all those who scream about this clash of cultures and the need to kill them in Iraq or you'll be killed by them over here is so transparent and utterly rediculas at this point that is bears no further attack. Yes a battle is formulating between fundo-islam and the west and a strategy is necessary but the invasion and effective destablization of Iraq is not a part of the solution; it in fact exacerbates the problem and will continue to do so for at least the next 5-7 years while putting the US in serious financial trouble.
Bush slipped into the line waiting toget into the guard like many young men who did not want to fight in Vietnam. He did not join the armed forces because he believed in the mission. He one step up the ladder from that scum VP who did nothing. I am glad, of course, that they sisn't them participated in the war and that neithWell Blu,
You too do seem to be rising to the bait. I don't give a fuck if the bush girls don fatigues or not. The hypocracy of all those who scream about this clash of cultures and the need to kill them in Iraq or you'll be killed by them over here is so transparent and utterly rediculas at this point that is bears no further attack. Yes a battle is formulating between fundo-islam and the west and a strategy is necessary but the invasion and effective destablization of Iraq is not a part of the solution; it in fact exacerbates the problem and will continue to do so for at least the next 5-7 years while putting the US in serious financial trouble.
Bush slipped into the line waiting toget into the guard like many young men who did not want to fight in Vietnam. He did not join the armed forces because he believed in the mission. He one step up the ladder from that scum VP who did nothing. I am glad, of course, that they sisn't them participated in the war and that neither killed Vietnamese but loath their duplicity.er killed Vietnamese but loath their duplicity.
Posted by: Strawman at November 20, 2006 07:17 PM (9ySL4)
7
The former commander of the Texas Air National Guard says it is a lie to say Bush used influence to "slip into the line" for the Air National Guard fighter pilot program. Several positions were open, yet went unfilled during that time. There was dearth of candidates, partly due to the high standards in place for admitting candidates into that dangerous and demanding program.
Posted by: gcotharn at November 21, 2006 12:13 PM (Rhyyb)
The Dutch government agreed on Friday a total ban on the wearing of burqas and other Muslim face veils in public, justifying the move on security grounds.
. . .
"The cabinet finds it undesirable that garments covering the face -- including the burqa -- should be worn in public in view of public order, (and) the security and protection of fellow citizens," the Dutch Justice Ministry said in a statement.
. . .
The Muslim community estimates that only about 50 women in the Netherlands wear the head-to-toe burqa or the niqab, a face veil that conceals everything but the eyes.
What's that? "The moslem community?" I didn't know they spoke with one voice. In fact, I always heard that the reason they never seem to denounce blowing up innocent people and chopping people's heads off is because there is no unified "moslem community." But I digress.
Dutch Muslim groups have complained a burqa ban would make the country's 1 million Muslims feel more victimized and alienated, regardless of whether they approve of burqas or not.
"This will just lead to more girls saying 'hey I'm also going to wear a burqa as a protest'," Naima Azough, a member of parliament from the opposition Green Left, told an election campaign meeting for fellow members of the Moroccan community.
Sorry, but I don't seem to remember any moslem girls protesting when Van Gogh was killed. Perhaps if they had, Dutch people would've been more hesitant to ban their backward-ass burkas.
Job Cohen, the Labour mayor of Amsterdam, said he opposed burqas in schools and public buildings, and said women wearing one who failed to get a job should not expect welfare benefits.
Makes sense to me. Nice to see Dutch Labour getting a clue.
1
There seems to finally be a reaction to the cultural aggression of the muslims in Europe, but its too little, too late. If they don't limit further muslim immigration and the white people don't start having babies, they will all be dominated by Islam in about twenty years.
Posted by: kyle8 at November 18, 2006 05:42 AM (RnziQ)
2
kYLE,
Hello, but aren't Semites white people? And when did the distinction between Muslims and the rest of us come down to skin color?
Annie, I have mixed feeling about legislation that regulates the clothes we wear. And what did the framers have in mind when they wrote the establishment clause? Religion free from the influence of government:Support or repression.
I don't know anything about the foundation of Dutch law but correct me if I am wrong if I hear you saying that you would be in favor of the US passing a similar law.
I would not have a problem with the govt. banning ALL visual symbols of one's faith while in a public school or while employed as a civil servant, right down to little cross earings, or a star of david visible on a mans chest, but I would draw the line at citizens walking the streets.
Posted by: Strawman at November 18, 2006 10:53 AM (9ySL4)
3
Am ignoring my rule to respond to the dirty twat above:
This is our culture, we set the rules to keep this culture in place. Fucking tolerance and establishment clauses and shit weren't designed to have us disestablish our culture (i.e. banning visual symbols of faith for all) because some asshole camel jockey thinks his homely bitch wife is too hot to show her face in public. Everything does not have to be equal. burqas go against western culture, we don't have to give anything in response to banning them. how they practice their religion can adapt or go back home.
There is a reason they immigrated to our countries, and its because of the superior way we do things. Like managing to have a fucking functioning economy so that they, the immigrant, can leech off the welfare from it. The Moslem/Muslim/Saracen morality doesn't work with the things that make the West so attractive to immigrate too in the first place. They must take the steps to adapt if they want part of what we have. And that concept of "we" is fundamental here. You can take brotherhood of mankind, treat everyone the same crap elsewhere. I live in a real world with real borders that set the boundaries for different cultures. This is us, here, our land, and its what is happening with islamic immigrants in europe (i.e. they are seeking to change what we thinking of as "european") that is why we need to oppose high levels of immigration here. If the immigrants love the way they do things so much, then they should stay home.
Posted by: Ignoreland at November 18, 2006 01:56 PM (LvTNO)
4
Ignoreland,
Boy are you a schmuck. What percentage of the AMerican population do you think is the product of immigrants that arrived since 1900?
I don't what you think you've got but whatever it is has been enhanced, modified, enriched and sustained by people born outside America.
Posted by: Strawman at November 18, 2006 02:47 PM (9ySL4)
5
Speaking only as a descendent of colonists to the New World, may I say that I agree with ignoreland. Immigrants came to the US because of the benefits it offered. Immigrants today such as latinos seem to be here because they think it is their right. Look at the illegals protesting in NC over being fired at the Smithfield packing plant. [management should be jailed for hiring them.]
Muslim immigrants come here to spead islam as their prophet tells them to. That is why we need to oppose high levels of *any* immigration here.
Posted by: Southern(USA)whiteboy at November 18, 2006 04:40 PM (2C4Ih)
6
I agree that it's undesirable for a government to legislate what people may wear. I don't know why any woman would want to be hampered by a burka or why it pleases a husband to have his wife draped like that.
Posted by: Joules at November 18, 2006 09:01 PM (u4CYb)
Posted by: Casca at November 18, 2006 09:42 PM (2gORp)
8
Arabs, Turks, and north africans are not white people in the same sense that Europeans are. Nor do they think themselves such. However, I never intimated that the differences came down to skin color, it was only used to draw a distinction. But you are too ignorant and bellicose to know any better.
What I said still stands, they Euro's are finally waking up to the vipers in their midst. But it is a day late, and a Euro short.
Posted by: kyle8 at November 18, 2006 10:00 PM (Vu20H)
9
While I applaud the move by the Dutch, I remain most worried that Europe will just let this crap go on until it reaches a crisis point and then the reaction will have all the sense and reason of the "usual" revolution in old Europe. I expect the blood will run as deep as it ever has in the streets of Paris and other "enlightened" cities. Instead of reasonable reforms we will see violent and ridiculous over-reaction and a real battle, ending with bloody retribution. My only hope is that we will at least get to see bare breasted women atop the barricades.
Posted by: TBinSTL at November 18, 2006 10:54 PM (MSiPb)
10
To Strawbrain:
Listen up you dumb fucktard:
Our culteral Political Coorectness will cost us our society. Those assholes can conform or go home.
The mere thought that some womanhas the right to wear a veil for her driver's license photo makes me want to puke. No wonder the crooks and assholes all love it; hell soon some bank robber will sue to be able to wear a mask as he does his banking withdrawals or his no pay shopping at Costco.
Eurabia is just waking up top the real threat of Islam; too late, I think they are goners. All that might survive here is American and Australia.
Get Mark Steyn's new book, "America Alone". The birthrate, plus the determination to proseletyze us all to make US conform to THEIR Sharia is the most frightening thing I have ever read.
Take your PC and shove it, and while you are at it, get the hell off of our blog. No one here agrees with any of your drivel.
Posted by: shelly at November 19, 2006 05:07 AM (SLFj+)
11
Shit Shelly, you're starting to sound like me. The deal with this asshole is that he is self-loathing, thus thrives on the negative attention of others. Were he simply ignored, he'd wander away, but Kyle and Scof foolishly play his game.
BTW Scof, PAY UP BITCH! LMAO!!!
Posted by: Casca at November 19, 2006 09:27 AM (2gORp)
12
Shelly,
I didn't think this was anyone but Annika's blog. You being a private property deist should not disrespect her property by calling it yours. But that is the least of your problems.
I am actually not a PC kinda guy and if you read my stuff with out your idiot prejudices you would know that. Feeling uncomfortable with our government legislating clothing standards and so do you. This is something I would have thought you would oppose being the reactionary RW less govt. is more kinds guy you are but like most of your breed your self-serving interests and ass dribbling fear trumps your clear minded thinking.
As I said, when in the midst of civil authority the veil and burka come off or you don't drive. The needs of the state come first. If you can demonstrate that burka clad bank robberies are more than a figment of your petrified imagination than then they shall also be banned from the public street. But you are clearly not thinking. The history of immigration has ALWAYS been that a majority come here for peace and prosperity and freedom from oppression. Although it does seem that many more are coming these days for the money to send home to the country that they still call home. But the difference is the legal v. illegal immigrants. I agree in principal with efforts to stem the tide. I am not sure of the best way to do it or how to deal with the 10 million or so who are here. I'm listening? Got any good ideas?
This blog would be limping toward moribundness(no disrespect intended Annie, but you know what it would be like around here if Shelly and Catshit had sway)if not for opposing opinions. I am one of a few but you Shelly and your crony are nails in the coffin of discourse, imagination as well as cancerous polyps in the colon of a healthy society.
Kyle8,
You can make all the racial distinctions you wish: Really white v. somewhat white but Christian v. less than white but Muslem v. swarthy white but Jewish, etc. ( Ask the Afrikaners for some help in this area, they have plenty of distinctions) Just donÂ’t expect others to enter your preposterous, racist little construct without the benefit of a map.
Posted by: Strawman at November 19, 2006 11:40 AM (9ySL4)
13
"Were he simply ignored, he'd wander away,"
Not quite, Casca.
Straw doesn't care whether we ignore him or not. As long as he thinks there is some hope that he will influence Annie to "convert" and jump on the Leftist bandwagon, Straw will not go away. Since Annika hasn't shown any overt displays of contempt or hostility towards him, his delusions won't be shattered anytime soon.
Posted by: reagan80 at November 20, 2006 12:15 AM (ybfP0)
14
"Since Annika hasn't shown any overt displays of contempt or hostility towards him, his delusions won't be shattered anytime soon."
challenging Strawman to a duel didn't count?
Posted by: annika at November 20, 2006 12:36 AM (qQD4Q)
15
"challenging Strawman to a duel didn't count?"
Sorry, I must've missed that one, but I'm glad to hear that nevertheless. If that means there's no chance that you'll ever fall for his charades, I guess I can stop digging through the archives and repeatedly showing off Straw's cyber dingleberries.
Posted by: reagan80 at November 20, 2006 02:03 AM (ybfP0)
16
Raygun,
I think you should examine your fondness for my dingleberries cyber or otherwise.(Ya' know Ray its demeaning just to type that word.)
Annie challanged so I had the choice of weapons. When I chose ABM's at 1000 miles she conceded to a draw since the chances of any damage was nil.
Posted by: Strawman at November 20, 2006 07:45 AM (9ySL4)
Spin Digest
It's almost a week since the election and the punditry has coalesced into two distinct themes. I'll digest them for you right now, so you can enjoy the rest of the week without having to bother with the news at all.
The Right: Republicans lost because they didn't try to please the conservative base. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that most Americans are pissed about Iraq, don't believe the President's "stay the course" line anymore, and think it's time to either win or get out. No, the election was really about prescription drug entitlements.
The Left: Not only is Nancy Pelosi really smart and a grandmother, she isn't liberal at all. She's actually a centrist. All Americans are ecstatic that she's in charge of the country. Except for those Republicans, who are very sad. On the other hand, George H. W. Bush is in charge of the country, which would normally be bad, except we like him now.
Take the rest of the week off, but don't forget to visit here as often as possible for more essential analysis.
1
Great analysis Annika and I think the jury is still out on why the republicans lost and the democrats won. I love the concept that winners have (some number, 100 perhaps?) loads of fathers and losers are orphans. If you were to ask me, and so far exactly no one has... the lack of passion is why the republicans lost. Hurricane Katrina all by itself is enough for the republicans to have gotten their heads handed to then. Add Duke Cunningham (one of my heros from VN I was in country working on F4's when he became an ace) a old guy going off to jail for influence peddling, Tom Delay's problems and Mark Foley hitting on boys? Its a miracle that there are any republicans left on capital hill. The thing I'd be seriously worried about if I were George Bush nowadays is being impeached as he's got no friends on the Hill. This is the same senerio that caused the downfall of Richard Nixon and for a number of reasons didn't cause it for Bill Clinton. It should be an interesting 2 years...
Posted by: Drake Steel at November 13, 2006 11:04 PM (5uuIt)
2
Annika,
I don't think the issue of how smart she is or just how she is, is really so important. Smart people do stupid things all the time and the inverse is equally frequent.
Is Bill Frist a smart guy? Presumably he is, being a doctor and all that goes with that. But whaaat was he doing when he jumped on the Teri Schiavo band wagon and went so far as to proffer an emphatic diagnosis with out examining her or her records? It was stupid not to mention cruel and politically motivated. Smart as he may be he was at the mercy of his black hearted desire to position himself in this matter in a way he thought would be benificial to the Party and his personal political asperations. As the psychiatrist that saw Carmela SOprano that one time might ask Bill, "so how is that going?"
Smart ain't all its cracked up to be. It is all to often trumped by ambition, carelessness and avarice. These are componants of character, a far more important issue than smart.
Posted by: Strawman at November 14, 2006 09:36 AM (9ySL4)
3
liberal is the missing word in the first sentence
Posted by: Strawman at November 14, 2006 09:37 AM (9ySL4)
4
A circumstance beyond our control, oh oh oh oh
The phone, the tv and the news of the world
Got in the house like a pigeon from hell, oh oh oh oh
Threw sand in our eyes and descended like flies
Posted by: fav song at November 14, 2006 11:17 AM (a3fqn)
5
"Smart ain't all its cracked up to be. It is all to [sic]often trumped by ambition, carelessness and avarice. These are componants of character, a far more important issue than smart."
I agree. Bill Clinton taught us that years ago.
Posted by: blu at November 14, 2006 12:20 PM (w2RJn)
6
Blu,
That is quite true. But if your thinking that W on the other hand is dull witted, uneducated, poorly spoken, but has a good character you are mistaken.
Posted by: Strawman at November 14, 2006 01:51 PM (9ySL4)
7
Nope - not thinking that. After all, he's hardly dull-witted and is certainly very well-educated. Wouldn't make any sense now would it? Thanks for making things more cogent for other readers, however.
Posted by: blu at November 14, 2006 02:51 PM (w2RJn)
Despite Recent Unpleasantness, Saddam Still Popular With Liberals
I won't dirty my blog with video of Bill Mahr, but I do want you to check out this clip, on YouTube. It's called "Farewell to Douchebags," and it's a look back at some faces we've probably seen the last of (or not).
Mahre sets it up by noting how they do the same thing during the Oscars each year, with the dead person reel. Some people inevitably get more applause than others, and sometimes there's an audible pause while people decide how much acclamation to bestow. Mar gives an example "they go, oh DeForest Kelly . . . okay we liked him"
Now watch the video and listen to the hearty applause given at Tom Delay's or Karl Rove's pictures and then compare it to the uncomfortable semi-silence at Saddam Hussein's picture. The audience was like "uh uh do we cheer? oh shit, shit whatdowedo?!" It's liberal brain lock.
1
Bill Mahr is the "liberal I'd like most to punch."
The studied arrogance mixed with the pseudo-intellectualism make it impossible NOT to want to bitch-slap the no talent ass clown.
Posted by: blu at November 12, 2006 05:12 PM (w2RJn)
2
"pseudo-intellectualism"? I guess someone who went to Cornell (ivy league) cannot be an intellectual. He is quite talented by the way. Blu, you might feel the urge to clown him probably because some of his jokes bring truth and humor at the same time - why does that bother you?
Posted by: Derek at November 12, 2006 08:03 PM (qrKVb)
3
talk about a smirk. wallace has nothing on this guy.
Posted by: annika at November 12, 2006 08:47 PM (qQD4Q)
4
Wow! Cornel!! Really? Gee, my opinion of that idiot has really changed now. For now on, I'll just ignore his lame jokes and the ad hominem attacks he substitutes for rational argument.
Tell ya what, Derek, many of us that chime in at Annika's brilliant blog have multiple degrees from prestigious schools. Does that make us intellectuals?
And what really bothers me is that Mahr is, at best, a second-rate humorist and certainly no more than a third-rate "intellectual," who pretends to be both and then demands to be taken seriously by those who call him on his sophistry -his nice little BA from an "Ivy League" school notwithstanding.
BTW, Al Franken went to even a better school (Harvard), and he's an even bigger idiot. (And, though it might seem improbable, even less funny.)
Posted by: blu at November 12, 2006 09:42 PM (w2RJn)
5
Blu,
I just think you wish you could crack wise and in poor humor on TV and this is all sour grapes. Go tell Moxie how her Cornell degree is no better than Mr. Mahr's.
I think he is pretty funny and usually watch and get a few good laughs notwithstanding his smirk, smarm and the clear appreciation he has for himself.
Posted by: Strawman at November 13, 2006 07:54 AM (9ySL4)
Posted by: Scof at November 13, 2006 09:59 AM (a3fqn)
7
"notwithstanding his smirk, smarm and the clear appreciation he has for himself."
True dat....
Posted by: blu at November 13, 2006 10:37 AM (j8oa6)
8
Actually, Straw, instead of watching trash like Mahr, you should check out Andy Garcia's "The Lost City" and get an artistic glimpse of the terror imposed by your heroes in Cuba.
Posted by: blu at November 13, 2006 01:29 PM (w2RJn)
9
blu,
First off, Andy Garcia is an unwatchable actor. Skin crawlingly bad.
In spite of that i did see, I think, most or part of Lost City. I thought it just another personal ax to grind lament by the deposed gentry who really only care for rights with regard to earning money but couch their displeasure with socialism in terms of the human spirit. Basically the same bullshit that our govt. always uses when it is itching to depose a government that is leaving the sphere of Capitalism i.e. Nicaragua, Chile, Cuba, Iraq, etc. We don't differentiate fascist from communist. If they have declared themselves to be in the other camp, the camp that denies the establishment of sweat shops, bottling plants for coke or Pepsi, extractors etc. and generally refuses to allow their population to be exploited and their terrain to be raped for the profit of off-shore partners then they become enemies of democracy. Look how well Nigeria is doing with all their oil wealth. Manly of Jamaica was declared a commie because he wouldnÂ’t let the bauxite extractors run roughshod. Cuba would be in the same shape if not for the revolution. Gambling, prostitution, organized crime, tourist trade, hotel workers, peasants picking fruit for American growers, oh, and maybe some parliamentary democracy that had no commitment to governing for the people.
Posted by: Strawman at November 13, 2006 02:21 PM (9ySL4)
10
I love baiting you into defending those murderous thugs. Reminds folks how truly unhinged your politics are.
The film was fair to the history. It showed Batista and his allies for the thugs they were; but then went on to show how much worse off Cuba and its people were/are once Che and his butchers started with their "ends justify the means" insanity. Aside from that, though, the film was a vehicle to show people the beauty of Cuban music.
Posted by: blu at November 13, 2006 03:16 PM (w2RJn)
11
BLu,
Would you not call Iraq "ends justify the means" insanity??
Posted by: Strawman at November 13, 2006 04:43 PM (9ySL4)
12
Annika,
The applause meter thing with Rove and DeBug is quite right if you sit and think carefully. Of the three Saddam did the least damage to America.
Posted by: Strawman at November 13, 2006 04:47 PM (9ySL4)
13
I think you incorrectly assume that the typical Mar audience has the same capacity for rational thought that you do, Straw.
Posted by: annika at November 13, 2006 06:32 PM (qQD4Q)
14
I riPed ofF All my pewbick hairs with my bear hands after reEding that up abbove..
Posted by: Spanky at November 13, 2006 08:11 PM (dFOlH)
15
Straw,
If you can't see the difference between enslaving people under the yoke of totalitarianism and delivering them from it, then you're a moral neophyte.
Posted by: blu at November 13, 2006 08:35 PM (w2RJn)
16
Blu,
The only problem with your rejoinder is that NOBODY has been delivered from tyranny and the price for delivering NOBODY has been very high. We have been throwing lead lifesavers to people that were still swimming.
Posted by: Strawman at November 14, 2006 08:19 AM (9ySL4)
17
Yeah, the non-Sunnis in the Sadaam era weren't under tyranny. May I suggest, perhaps, I history book. Or maybe a talk with anybody that managed to escape Sadaam's Iraq. It's one thing to complain about the U.S. war strategy and offer a critique of the current DEMOCRATICALLY elected government in Iraq; it's quite another to re-write history.
Posted by: blu at November 14, 2006 11:25 AM (w2RJn)
Posted by: blu at November 14, 2006 10:16 PM (w2RJn)
20
We've thrown everybody into a caldron of chaos, fear and insecurity and have no idea how to set it straight. No fucking idea. Oh, they voted so they can go to their graves licking blue fingers. Sounds like 72 virgins to me.
Posted by: Strawman at November 19, 2006 07:00 PM (9ySL4)
I Blame Bush
No one loves and supports this President more than I do. But after yesterday's debacle I have to say it: I blame Bush.
It was a debacle, and don't let anybody tell you different. The voters threw forty Republicans out of office, and they would have thrown Bush out too, if they'd only had the chance. Not a single Democratic incumbent lost, and the carnage would have been much worse if it had not been for Gerrymandering.
Clinton's famous catch phrase was, "It's the economy, stupid." It's pretty obvious that the American people sent a message this year, and the message was, "It's the war, stupid." That there are Republicans out there who failed to hear this message is one of the truly astounding things about yesterday's election.
Hugh Hewitt is the prime example. Don't get me wrong, Hugh Hewitt knows more about government and politics that I could ever hope to learn. His radio show is the highlight of my listening day. And he has done amazing work for the party before, as he will again. But Hugh's Townhall column today was so clueless, I think he must need some time off.
In an essay that's 1,351 words long, Hugh failed to cite the Iraq War even once as a possible cause for the Republicans being thrown out on their asses yesterday. Instead, incredibly, he blames John McCain:
The post-mortems are accumulating, but I think the obvious has to be stated: John McCain and his colleagues in the Gang of 14 cost the GOP its Senate majority while the conduct of a handful of corrupt House members gave that body's leadership [to] the Democrats.
That's an incredible example of denial. Look, I'm no McCain fan. I've already placed on the record my vow never to vote for him, even in a general election. But what percentage of swing voters — the middle third who decided this election — do you think even know what the Gang of 14 was? Not many, I'd wager. And how many of these swing voters would eagerly admit that the Iraq War was their number one issue? I'd say virtually all of them.
Listen carefully to what I'm saying. The principled base might have been pissed off at Republican betrayals, but the base still turned out yesterday. The middle third, the independents, the swing voters, they're who I'm talking about. They're the ones who led the revolt, and their issue was the War. Any one of you can verify this for yourself by asking a few questions around the water cooler.
I'm not saying that we Republicans lost because Americans want to cut and run. Don't believe that bullshit. I absolutely do not believe that the majority of Americans think their country is engaged in an immoral war. I believe that Americans wouldn't really care whether there were WMD in Iraq, if the war was over and won by now. Most Americans want to win, and they can't understand why we haven't yet. The 2004 election was America's rejection of the hate-America crowd who believe the Iraq War was wrong, immoral, what have you. Those people are a loud but small minority. In 2004, Americans made a different choice and said to the President, "We're sticking with you, now go get it done."
And the problem this time around was that, two years later, the President still had not gotten it done.
We can blame the media all we want. We can blame the Cindy Sheehans and the Michael Moores and the Jimmy Carters and the Kos Kids and the George Soroses all we want. They deserve blame. But the fact remains, George W. Bush was handed a vote of confidence by the American people in 2004, and he did not get the job done. Not only that, he took our patience for granted.
The patience of a Democratic people is a historically fickle thing. It would be nice if it weren't so fickle, but it is. And that's part of the ground that President Bush had to fight on. You can't excuse it by saying, as we've heard for three years now, "It's hard work. Stay the course. Stay the course." Americans demand results. We're willing to sacrifice; we're willing to be patient; we're willing to trust our leaders. But ultimately, we demand results.
And 105 brave souls lost in the last month is not results.
We can say that the media is not reporting the real progess being made in Iraq, and I believe that's true. But at some point you gotta ask, "Can we stop with the building schools and the passing out candy, and just win this thing — and get our people home?"
President Bush's task is often compared by people on my side of the aisle to Lincoln's task during the Civil War. Lincoln is said to have stood firm in the face of vehement opposition. He stayed the course during the darkest days, and won through to victory. But the comparison, as it looks right now, is not an apt one. Lincoln fired a shitload of generals. Lincoln demanded results, and eventually he got results. Look, I love Rumsfeld for the way he talked back to the media. I was willing to support Rummy through thick and thin, despite what the generals thought of him. But the war plan was Rumsfeld's baby, and as soon as he stopped getting results, he should have been gone.
I understand that the enemy adapts. I get it. But to use a football analogy, we're sick of the three and outs. We need to see some first downs here, guys.
I supported the decision to go to war against Saddam. Even knowing what I know now, I still support that decision. But my support is given with the assumption that we're in it to win. We simply must win. As I said before, there is no third way in Iraq.
Victory in Iraq — let's just call it "success" at this point — should be defined like this: any situation in Iraq that would enable us to bring our troops home without everything we've done in the last three and a half years falling to pieces once we leave. I'm not sure that the Democrats have any idea how to accomplish this, but I also know that the President sure as shit hasn't gotten us there yet.
So that's why we Republicans lost the House and Senate yesterday. There's plenty of other reasons you can cite to me, and they're all valid criticisms, I'm sure. Culture of corruption, Foleygate, Delaygate, etc. Dubai Ports, Harriet Meiers, even the Gang of 14, if you like. The Bridge to Nowhere, earmarks, amnesty, Hurricane Katrina, whatever. The list goes on and on. But there's one thing I'll argue 'til I'm out of breath. The American people would have forgiven any of those things — hell, all of those things — if only we knew that our boys were coming home soon, and victorious.
1
I think you are exactly right. When a company doesn't perform, you don't blame the stock boy, you blame the CEO. When the party gets its collective ass kicked, you look to the party leader. I think Bush's press conference today was one of the best appearances of his Presidency. Maybe if he had learned a few of these lessons a couple years ago, we would be celebrating yet another Republican sweep.
Posted by: Frank at November 08, 2006 09:31 PM (thL0H)
Posted by: reagan80 at November 08, 2006 09:32 PM (dFOlH)
3
Well said, annika.
My biggest gripe with the Bush administration has been it's inability (or flat unwillingness) to use the bully pulpit a la FDR in building and maintaining support for the war effort.
And the inability/unwillingness to adapt has had me banging my head on walls for months.
Posted by: KG at November 08, 2006 10:38 PM (AC0TE)
4
KG, you are exactly right. The failure of Dubyah's administration is the failure to communicate and thus failure to lead. The perception of futility, true or not, is a very dangerous thing. You'd think that they never lived through the Clinton years, where all we got was nonstop 24/7 lies to feed the media cycle. So much for Rovian brilliance. Ya gotta feed the beast.
Posted by: Casca at November 09, 2006 12:23 AM (2gORp)
5
Annie - Well put, but Frist and Hastert have to take blame as well. When only 16 percent of Americans approve of the job you're doing, you should expect to take a hit if you are in charge (worst approval rating for Congress ever according to WSJ/NBC poll).
As for the efficacy of the bully-pulpit, I agree the President has not done a good job in even making most the U.S. government, let alone the American people, be involved in this war. Although Clausewitz and Sun-Tzu are perhaps over-quoted, there is merit to the notion of knowing the conflict you are entering, including knowing yourself and the enemy. Read the following:
The Iraq Syndrome
John Mueller
Foreign Affairs, November/December 2005
Posted by: Col Steve at November 09, 2006 02:06 AM (CtqPV)
6
Very well put, Annika. Like you, I like and support GWB. My one real problem with him has been, as Casca and KG say above, his failure to consistently and persuasively make the case for our efforts in Iraq. What has begun to really concern me is the idea that, in additon to the President's acknowledged difficulties communicating effectively, perhaps a much more serious problem is he really doesn't have an effective strategy to communicate. I completely agree with you that the American people might dislike many of the Republican foibles you list, but that all of that would have been overlooked if they saw real, demonstrable progress in Iraq. Your allusion to three and outs vs. a few first downs is well chosen. There are many people who just want to get out of Iraq, but there are almost certainly more who want to see us get more agressive, and, as you say, "just win this thing." By God, I am one of them. If it appeared to the public that we were winning this thing, the Republicans would have cruised through Tuesday's election.
Posted by: DBrooks at November 09, 2006 06:44 AM (PlDdK)
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So riddle me this... why is it that the Democrat nominee in CT who is anti-war lost so badly to the formerly-Democrat-now-independant candidate who supports the war in Iraq?
I think the war was a major part of it, but scandal after scandal and no restraint on the size of the gov't... it was too much. Talk to your water cooler coworkers and find out what they want to happen. I'll bet they're just like you, they want victory and they want the troops home. But both sides want that.
The Republicans lost their way and stopped standing for what got them in power. Victory over Iraq is not what got them in power.
Posted by: Darkmage at November 09, 2006 07:34 AM (Ly6MF)
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Annika,
Well reasoned, cogent thinking about the loss. I agree, if any demonstrable progress had been made in Iraq, Americans, the tack sharp and attentative group that they are would have let all the malfeasance, pedophilia, graft, bridges to nowhere, and other trespasses against Democracy heaped on America pass. When manipulated by fear, trumped up as it was, they will always lick the hand of the one who promises protection like the dog that was beaten hours before.
I, as you well know and care less, do not feel the invasion was the least bit necessary and given how it could not be justified without resorting to lies and cherry picked "intel", neither did the Bush gang. They have paid the price in a limited way. Losing control of the legislature is a small price to pay for the destruction of Iraq, 20,000 maimed and 3000 dead Americans. (I'll leave the Iraqi's out of this since none of you give a shit about them). When and if Bush is tossed into the dock, pronounced a criminal on the scale of, lets say Saddam (who was responsible for far fewer deaths and far less destruction), and sentenced to hang, then I'll be confidant he paid the price for his decisions.
Posted by: Strawman at November 09, 2006 08:05 AM (9ySL4)
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You're trackbacks don't work. So, this will have to suffice.
Posted by: Robbie at November 09, 2006 08:18 AM (foLp3)
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If you trust exit polls, Lieberman won because:
2/3rds of the voters were 45 yrs or older and they went mid-50% for Lieberman while Lamont only got mid-30's.
44% of the voters said Bush was not the dominant factor and 15% said they supported Bush -Lieberman got 70% of both those groups' vote.
Even of those who strongly (46%) or somewhat (20%) disapproved of the war in Iraq, Lieberman still got 30% and 62% respectively.
Lieberman got 55% of the independent vote.
And most telling, almost 60% said Lamont did not have enough experience and Lieberman got 75% of that vote (and the Republican got most of the rest). 15% of the 40% who thought Lamont had enough experience still voted for Lieberman.
In other words, Lamont needed to offer more than we differ on the war.
Annie -
I don't completely agree on the 3 and out analogy. If we are using football, I believe the more appropriate reference is people don't know where the first down markers and the goal line are. We have had a National Strategy for Victory in Iraq since Nov 2005 and I bet 999 out of 1000 people couldn't name the 3 broad tracks and the main objective under each. Every now and then the President will say "we've trained X number of Iraqis" but there is no context for that statement. In the football analogy, the team has had a 5 yard gain but nobody is sure if we are in in 3rd and short or 3rd and long.
Read Ralph Peter's op-ed in USA Today (2 Nov) -- and recall Hamilton's discussion in Federalist Papers #23: "means ought to be proportioned to ends."
Posted by: Col Steve at November 09, 2006 08:51 AM (pj2h7)
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If Straw wants Bush dead so much and can't afford to hire an assassin by conventional means, I recommend that he use this method of bargaining instead when contracting the hit.
Posted by: reagan80 at November 09, 2006 11:15 AM (dFOlH)
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The beginning of the end for the Republican revolution of '94 was exemplified by the sound of a zipper being pulled down.
It belonged to the genius who engineered the revolution and was making it tick.
I blame Newt Gingrich's dick.
Posted by: shelly at November 09, 2006 11:30 AM (SLFj+)
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First time poster, long time reader...
I have to disagree with you on one thing. I think 54 percent or so of the American voting public DID vote for cut and run Tuesday. I think the so called "libertarian" wing of the party is turning isolationaist, and that the fabled "swing voters" made a conscious decision that we should just cut our losses, and load up that last chopper out of Saigon, so to speak. What worries me, and what truly hurts, is that if we do that, it WILL probably be Vietnam redux...we'll essentially be leaving the people we went to help to die, while we turn our short attention spans to the latest Lost episode or how many touchdowns Peyton Manning threw.
Ironically, the Democrats have made much hay about how we're wasting the lives of our soldiers in Iraq. If we do pull out, then that's exactly what we'll have done, as all of our efforts there will have been for naught.
Posted by: Douglas at November 09, 2006 11:44 AM (IfCcM)
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you and I dont disagree Douglas. What happened is that the "cut and run" line was easy to sell to the swing voters. It wouldn't have been if there had been tangible progress in Iraq, instead of a situation that everyone admits is now getting worse.
Posted by: annika at November 09, 2006 12:06 PM (zAOEU)
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Col Steve -
You give the American public too much credit. I'd say 999 out of 1000 (alas myself included) don't even know there are broad tracks with objectives.
Posted by: DHammett at November 09, 2006 12:34 PM (J7BEJ)
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So, in the end, "Mission Accomplished" isn't and Rumsfeld took the fall. But where do we go from here? Do we cut and run, or do we listen to the generals that say that we need many more troops in Iraq? Even if Gates proposes the latter policy, it's not going to get through Congress. And Bush may even discover the veto and actually veto any troop reductions. So, in essence, the post-Rumsfeld troop levels will stay at the Rumsfeld-preferred levels - not too many, not too few.
Posted by: Ontario Emperor at November 09, 2006 02:08 PM (YWsCw)
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One tires of that old canard, Canadastan breath. It was the ship that posted THEIR "Mission Accomplished" Banner upon returning to port from a long deployment, not the White House.
Posted by: Casca at November 09, 2006 03:21 PM (2gORp)
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Funny how the MSM has never bothered correcting that obvious distortion and in fact has perpetuated it without a hint of shame. Just one of the many lies spread by the Left that would never be allowed by the MSM if the tables were turned.
Posted by: blu at November 09, 2006 03:35 PM (/J4yP)
Posted by: Leif at November 09, 2006 05:14 PM (bakP3)
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Blu, Casca,
ThatÂ’s bullshit. Pure wishful bullshit that the troops lettered the sign, posted the sign and the poor schnook of a president and his oblivious handlers inadvertently allowed it to become his backdrop. Idiotic thinking.
If I remember that was the horseshit the Presidents press people cooked up as the excuse after everybody went nuts with what a piece of choreographed crap it was, him in his flight suit emerging from a plane where he sat in the 2 seat 30 miles off San Fran. Strutting his arrogant dimwitted ass across the deck. You think he saw the sign and thought "gee, I wonder if this might be a bit premature, might be kinda grandstanding like, better check with the media people and see if they thought this through". His people did the sign. His people put him under the sign; his people thought this was a fucking great idea because their heads were so far up their collective asses they thought the war was OVER and Iraq a nice secure protectorate! It was a seriously printed banner, not a paint brush on a sheet; it didn't get done spontaneously by the crew. The crap you get yourselves to believe is astounding.
Posted by: Strawman at November 09, 2006 06:30 PM (9ySL4)
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White House pressed on 'mission accomplished' sign
Navy suggested it, White House made it, both sides say
From Dana Bash
CNN Washington Bureau
Wednesday, October 29, 2003 Posted: 9:18 AM EST (1418 GMT)
Navy and administration sources said that though the banner was the Navy's idea, the White House actually made it.
Bush offered the explanation after being asked whether his speech declaring an end to major combat in Iraq under the "Mission Accomplished" banner was premature, given that U.S. casualties in Iraq since then have surpassed those before it.
Posted by: Strawman at November 09, 2006 06:34 PM (9ySL4)
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Perhaps it works both ways:
1. For swing voters, Iraq is the big issue.
2. For some of the base and some of the libertarians it was the spending and corruption.
If you had good Iraq results but still had the other stuff, it might have turned out differently.
That said, if Iraq remained the same, but there had been excellent control of fiscal spending, no corruption, and good policies made, then it could also have been different.
Posted by: Aaron at November 09, 2006 07:16 PM (/nf1E)
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"The crap you get yourselves to believe is astounding."
Kind of like "Bush is responsible for more deaths than Sadaam"? Yeah, it is amazing to see the crap that people get themselves to believe.
The fact remains that the sign was associated not to the President or to a completed war but to that specific ship and its mission. Get over it.
Posted by: blu at November 09, 2006 09:31 PM (/J4yP)
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Strawfuck, we have learned some things from you here, e.g. you are both a fool and a liar, and you know nothing of the military. Back under your rock, slimey.
Posted by: Casca at November 09, 2006 09:55 PM (2gORp)
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I believe the disillusionment of the independents, and many of the 'base', was a combination of factors. The war issue was not just about a lack of victory, but about the full understanding of deception, followed by a number of other scandals that showed how arrogant some right-wingers really were.
The Gang of 14 was a ringing alarm that the arch-conservatives put back on snooze.
One of the final kickers was the private denigration of conservative religious leaders, discouraging or angering that portion of the base.
A Culture of Corruption is one thing, but to snicker at them behind their back supplied a handful of coffin nails.
People have short memories, however, so this does not mean 2008 is by any means a foregone conclusion.
Posted by: will at November 10, 2006 06:42 AM (h7Ciu)
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Blu,
Whether or not the sign was inspired by the tired sailors and marines who were out 190 days, it was hijacked by the president for his purposes. Right? Did anybody care what the original impetus was and what does it really matter? Should the MSM have reported on the event and put a crawl on the bottom of the screen explaining that the giant, 50 foot long, professionally made by the white house staff, red white and blue "Mission Accomplished" banner was the idea of the sailors and should in no way be construed to be the opinion of the president who is standing under it shouting "mission Accomplished" and waving his draft dodging hand like an ass." Yep, that should been the disclaimer
I guess in your distorted mind that would have made the press objective and unbiased.
Are you really being this foolish? Why Casca is is no mystery.
Posted by: Strawman at November 10, 2006 09:18 AM (9ySL4)
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"The Gang of 14 was a ringing alarm that the arch-conservatives put back on snooze."
excellent. that's such a great quote, i wish I'd said it first, will!
Posted by: annika at November 10, 2006 09:19 AM (qQD4Q)
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Feel free to use it if it strikes a chord.
On another note, was it just a couple of days ago that blu and strawman were having a reasoned discourse? I look forward to more of those, when they are both ready again.
Posted by: will at November 10, 2006 10:02 AM (h7Ciu)
Posted by: Strawman at November 10, 2006 11:34 AM (9ySL4)
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"when they are both ready again."
Both? I can appreciate the fence straddling, but it isn't Blu's fault that the comments degenerate. It can't be avoided since he's dealing with someone that is certifiably batshit crazy.
Posted by: reagan80 at November 10, 2006 11:41 AM (dFOlH)
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Thanks Reagan80.
Will, you may not agree with me, but I don't believe that I was being unreasonable. And, if Straw believes he was right then he wasn't being unreasonable either. Disagreement is not unreasonable.
Does reasonable in your world mean that you bend over and grab your ankles? split every argument down the middle? or articulate what you really believe? If you want to be a nancy boy or a cajone-less moderate, go for it.
But, hey, we all play on Annie's playround, so I promise to double-check my work and make certain I'm more thoughtful in my disagreement.
Posted by: blu at November 10, 2006 11:54 AM (/J4yP)
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Raygun,
Each time I re-read one of these old posts I still get a charge. Succinct, lucent, punchy, to the point and still a better evaluation of the reality of Iraq than anything you've ever written or thought of writing. Thanks for the memories.
You know its not that i don't feel for the guy's wife and kids, i really do. I just am so saddened by his thoughtless behavior and the choices he made as to how best to care for his family. A single guy with no dependants wants to drive a truck around Bagdad dodging IED's and rpg's is different. BTW, whatÂ’s keeping you over here? Lot's of opportunities for sharp dressed militarist like yourself.
Posted by: Strawman at November 10, 2006 03:04 PM (9ySL4)
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i don't agree...
the President is the only one who has waged a serious GWOT...
some Conservative pundits, critics, etc., got tunnel visioned, missing the larger picture.
the GWOT...
the Man who was asked by the American Public after 9-11, did so, was abandoned.
Conservatives seem to blame the Man for everything, but who expected him to do it alone?
for 6 long years the Liberals demeaned and slandered him, and Conservatives failed to defend him.
the wimpy Rhinos in the Senate only increased the problem, and the weak House Republicans helped with the folly as well.
but i would 'carry the water' for this President anyday.
i never expected perfection, and understood the alternative nightmare in the unethical DNC.
Posted by: hnav at November 11, 2006 09:57 AM (cAv4a)
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It's appalling to hear or see the phrase "cut and run," used by so many people who've never had to stand and fight.
Posted by: Marc at November 14, 2006 01:07 PM (KKAZS)