Lessons From The Iraq Experience
Allow me to recommend two essential articles from Armed Forces Journal that I think are necessary reading for those of us not on the fringes, who strive to understand rather than shout slogans back and forth. I find little to disagree with in either piece.
The first is "A Failure In Generalship," by Lt. Col. Paul Yingling. Colonel Yingling places blame squarely on Rumsfeld and his generals, for the failure to achieve our goals in Iraq.
The intellectual and moral failures common to America's general officer corps in Vietnam and Iraq constitute a crisis in American generalship. Any explanation that fixes culpability on individuals is insufficient. No one leader, civilian or military, caused failure in Vietnam or Iraq. Different military and civilian leaders in the two conflicts produced similar results. In both conflicts, the general officer corps designed to advise policymakers, prepare forces and conduct operations failed to perform its intended functions. To understand how the U.S. could face defeat at the hands of a weaker insurgent enemy for the second time in a generation, we must look at the structural influences that produce our general officer corps.
My only criticism of Yingling's article would be against his proposal that Congress assert more control over the selection and promotion of general officers. On the contrary, while Congress has a role, it's the executive's job to select military leaders who can get the job done. I believe Yingling is correct to criticize the culture of conformity that produced sub-par generals at the war's outset. But that's common in every major conflict. War is a results-oriented game, and typically the dross is burned away after the first few months of battle.
In the case of Iraq, we had an unusual tendency towards inertia that can only be blamed on Bush and Rumsfeld's management styles. Whether you want to call it admirable loyalty or excessive stubbornness, neither Bush nor the SecDef were willing to change horses when necessary to get results. Of what other successful wartime administration can this be said? Not Lincoln's, not FDR's, not Truman's.
To be fair, one reason for this President's inertia was the withering and omnipresent criticism from the left, whether by Democrats or internationally. Bush, rightly or wrongly, made the decision that sticking to his original plan and personnel was better than adapting midstream to the changing situation on the battlefield. His enemies so vehemently accused him of being wrong, that he overcompensated in an effort to prove that he was right.
I don't give Bush a pass on this. It's no excuse to say that he did what he did because the left made him do it. It's the commander-in-chief's job to husband the souls of those men and women serving our country as wisely as possible. I'll grant him the best of intentions; I know the President feels every loss of life personally and deeply. But, good intentions are not enough. As I've said many times before, what we need is results, and the responsibility for getting results lies ultimately with the president. If Franks, Casey and Abizaid were not getting the job done — and I don't think they were — Bush should have been quick with the hook. (Bush knows baseball; he should have taken a lesson from old Sparky Anderson.)
The essential constraint that the entire war team missed is the constraint of time and patience. In a democracy, this constraint is strict and onerous, especially now in our hyper-political environment where the opposing party turns every issue into a power-play. Time and patience are part of the battlefield, and Bush's advisors were negligent in failing to stress that fact. Success in Iraq, if it was/is to be had, must be had quickly, with sufficient force and resources to get it quickly. Unfortunately, Bush and Company acted like they had all day long. Instead, time has now nearly run out.
The second article, by Lt. Col. Ralph Peters (ret.), is called "Wanted: Occupation Doctrine." His point of view is decidedly Machiavellian, but in a good way. Peters catalogues some lessons we should take heed of when planning for the next counterinsurgency campaign.
Consider just a few essential rules for successful occupations — all of which we violated in Iraq:
• Plan for the worst case. Pleasant surprises are better than ugly ones.
• All else flows from security. Martial law, even if imposed under a less-provocative name, must be declared immediately — it's far easier to loosen restrictions later on than to tighten them in the wake of anarchy. This is one aspect of a general principle: Take the pain up front.
• Unity of command is essential.
• The occupier's troop strength should be perceived as overwhelming and his forces ever-present.
• Key military leaders, staff officers, intelligence personnel and vital civilian advisers must be committed to initial tours of duty of not less than two years for the sake of continuity.
• Control external borders immediately.
• Don't isolate troops and their leaders from the local population.
• Whenever possible, existing host-country institutions should be retained and co-opted. After formal warfare ends, don't disband organizations you can use to your advantage.
• Give local opinion-makers a stake in your success, avoid penalizing midlevel and low-level officials (except war criminals), and get young men off the streets and into jobs.
• Don't make development promises you can't keep, and war-game reconstruction efforts to test their necessity, viability and indirect costs (an occupation must not turn into a looting orgy for U.S. or allied contractors).
• Devolve responsibility onto local leaders as quickly as possible — while retaining ultimate authority.
• Do not empower returned expatriates until you are certain they have robust local support.
• The purpose of cultural understanding is to facilitate the mission, not to paralyze our operations. Establish immediately that violent actors and seditious demagogues will not be permitted to hide behind cultural or religious symbols.
• Establish flexible guidelines for the expenditure of funds by tactical commanders and for issuing local reconstruction contracts. Peacetime accountability requirements do not work under occupation conditions and attempts to satisfy them only play into the hands of the domestic political opposition in the U.S. while crippling our efforts in the zone of occupation.
• Rigorously control private security forces, domestic or foreign. In lieu of a functioning state, we must have a monopoly on violence.
Many of the above precepts have been adopted by Gen. Petraeus and his staff, now in charge of the war effort. For that reason, I'm hopeful that success is not yet beyond our grasp.
In the article, Peters uses the word "occupation," but he doesn't apologize for it.
The first step in formulating usable doctrine is to sweep aside the politically correct myths that have appeared about occupations. Occupations are military activities. Period. An Army general must be in charge, at least until the security environment can be declared benign with full confidence. Historically, the occupations that worked — often brilliantly, as in the Philippines, Germany and Japan — were run by generals, not diplomats. This is another mission the Army doesn't want, but no other organization has the wherewithal to do it.
It's obvious that Colonel Peters has a distinct pro-military, anti-Foggy Bottom bias. I share that bias.
Consider the prevailing claim that an occupation is a team effort involving all relevant branches of government: The problem is that the rest of the team doesn't show up. The State Department, as ambitious for power as it is incompetent to wield it, insists that it should have the lead in any occupation, yet has neither the leadership and management expertise, the institutional resources nor the personnel required (among the many State-induced debacles in Iraq, look at its appetite for developing Iraqi police forces and its total failure to deliver).
The military is the default occupier, since its personnel can be ordered into hostile environments for unlimited periods; State and other agencies rely on volunteers and, in Iraq, the volunteers have not been forthcoming — even when the tours for junior diplomats were limited to a useless 90 days and dire warnings were issued about the importance of Iraq duty to careers.
These two articles deserve wide readership. Print them out and read them on your lunch hour.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 27, 2007 05:13 PM (gyiuI)
2
On Yingling, Neptunus Lex has it right:
http://www.neptunuslex.com/2007/04/27/the-contrarian-point-of-view/#comments
Ralph Peters is right as usual, but with the benefit of hindsight. Until Petreus, we had the COTS solution in the CentCom Unified Commander du jour. Read Lex's analysis.
Posted by: Casca at April 27, 2007 11:58 PM (2gORp)
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Casca, he says at the end "Time and patience. Virtues in short supply, unfortunately." GMTA again!
Posted by: annika at April 28, 2007 08:31 AM (WfR6S)
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Not to diminish my respect for both of your intellectual abilities, that's a firm grasp of the obvious.
Posted by: Casca at April 28, 2007 10:28 PM (2gORp)
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I read the first few paragraphs of the Ralph Peters article (need to follow up later) and caught a nuance that you didn't highlight. Peters starts off by talking about the real war - not the one between the U.S. and the terrorists, not the one between the Department of Defense and the other departments, but the one between the military services. Peters basically says that the ARMY needs to figure out what to do during the next occupation. Montezuma, Schmontezuma.
For me, the biggest lesson of the war is at a much more basic level. When comparing this war with the 1991 war, it's clear to see that the 1991 war had a clear objective (get Iraq out of Kuwait) from which we did not deviate.
Will the next President of the United States, whoever he or she may be, be able to enunciate what our Iraq policy is?
Posted by: Ontario Emperor at April 29, 2007 07:23 AM (P8ktI)
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Jeez, there's nothing new here folks, except the players. In WWI, the Brits had to fight off their homegrown peaceniks, including some exhausted soldiers like Siegfried Sassoon, who demanded that the government publish it's "War Aims". Evidently "victory" is an insufficient concept.
Six months ago Anbar was written off as lost. Today huge steps toward pacification have been made. To borrow from a great lady, now is not the time to "go wobbly".
Posted by: Casca at April 29, 2007 07:54 PM (2gORp)
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Generals like Wes Clark and John Abizaid had the educational and cultural pedigrees Yingling recommends. Clark didn't exactly distinguish himself in the Balkans (almost expanding the conflict against the Russians). While I have great admiration for Gen Abizaid, he was ultimately responsible as the CENTCOM CDR for most of the "Phase IV" campaigns in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Yingling's right in that one of the "fall on your sword" perogatives of Service Chiefs is control over the selection of 1 star flag officers. Just like it took the debacle over Iran in 1980 to get momentum for the Goldwater-Nichols Act, the current campaigns are setting the foundation for a GNA sequel -- hopefully both dealing with senior military leader selection and larger interagency problems. Congress doesn't need to micromanage, but breaking the service cultures requires new approaches (joint promotion boards for example).
A better work on wartime promotion was done by a very bright Army LTC a few years ago --
http://usacac.army.mil/cac/milreview/download/English/NovDec04/markle.pdf
Ralph Peters is right as usual, but with the benefit of hindsight -- you got it Casca... and I add "without much consideration for realistic implementation"
Posted by: Col Steve at May 01, 2007 08:50 AM (WffUy)
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I find the idea of breaking the service cultures in a word, disconcerting. If you're talking about the sailors, I'm all for it. They haven't corporately fought a war since WWII, and they're a hodgepodge of at least a half-dozen intramurally waring cultures to begin with.
How about we create a promotion process that doesn't reward ass-kissing? How would one do that? I don't know how you divorce the process from the relationships that people have, even if those relationships elevate those averse to risk. There's that great scene in Lawrence of Arabia where Olivia says, "Young men make wars, and the virtues of war are the virtues of young men: courage, and hope for the future. Then old men make the peace, and the vices of peace are the vices of old men: mistrust and caution."
Posted by: Casca at May 01, 2007 07:55 PM (2gORp)
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Olivia was a great actress. Loved her in all those Errol Flynn movies.
Posted by: annika at May 02, 2007 07:37 AM (WfR6S)
Skadefryd Part 2: Rosie O'Donald Is Out
According to TMZ. Good news, I guess, but why don't they just cancel The View? While she was there it was easy to blame Rosie, but the show sucked long before she arrived.
Rosie hasn't announced yet, but how much you wanna bet she's going to spin it as "her decision," to "pursue other interests," blah blah blah. It won't be the fact that nobody likes a bully and she's a bully.
Rosie is the left's equivalent of Michael Savage — a loud, bigoted, egotistical, ignorant clown. The only reason Rosie gets away with it on tv and Savage is relegated to after-hours radio is that tv execs agree with Rosie's bullshit.
1
Not sure who The View's target audience is, but my guilty pleasure when I'm not working is to watch the first few minutes of Regis and Kelly.
I hadn't heard this story. Is she leaving immediately?
Posted by: Ontario Emperor at April 25, 2007 08:02 AM (YWsCw)
2Speaking of nuts, Straw, you've got to find a more socially appropriate way to worship your hero!A Canadian man was busted for celebrating Adolf Hitler's birthday Friday by walking around with nothing but a swastika taped to his body.
Concerned Vancouver residents called police after witnessing the naked memorial to the tyrant.
The suspect was held for psychiatric evaluation.
Posted by: Radical Redneck at April 25, 2007 09:02 AM (KcKYf)
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I've only caught glimpses of The View while watching programs that showed snippets of it - usually Rosie saying something ridiculous and the others agreeing. (The lone "conservative" generally being too gutless and/or dumb to respond.) Based on those few snippets, the show appears to be something only an idiot could enjoy. So, imagine my amazement when I read it was nominated for an Emmy. Who the fuck decides these things?!
Oh, Ontario, I've never watched Regis and Kelly, but I saw her on the cover a magazine recently - my God the woman has an AMAZING body! I had no idea she was so damn hot. Won't make me watch the show but did tempt me to buy a trashy, chick magazine ;-)
Posted by: blu at April 25, 2007 10:12 AM (j8oa6)
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Blu,
Yep, Kathy is a cute number. Remember she had a career as a singer and dancer before she was a footballerÂ’s wife. I like her raspy voice.
Oh, gosh Blu, another thing we have in common. Where will it end?
Did you see Richard Clarke take apart the puerile Bush "puppy doctrine"? You know the theory that if we don't toilet train them in Iraq they will follow us home and crap on our beautifully mowed lawns.
A theory only a moron could speak out loud and only cretins would nod their heads at, shrug and go yea, that's right, fight them there not here, then scratch, spit and wonder what keeps them from coming now and just side stepping Iraq where they might get shot. You don't hafta know how to score bowling or have an IQ higher than the wheelbase of you pick-up to laugh at the holes in this theory. Yet, George gets up each day and Dick and Karl tell him he's got to out and keep flogging it. Just keep saying it George, fuck'em, they won't ask you to explain it and if they do who better than you to talk circular bullshit about it. Look real grave George, give 'em that Bush squint when you say the part about fighten'em here, ina 'merica.
Aren't you embarrassed yet Blu?
Posted by: Strawman at April 25, 2007 03:51 PM (et8nf)
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I stopped reading after I saw the name Richard Clarke. (Is he hawking some new lies to try and make a buck? The word is that the guy is a pompous asshole with whom nobody wants to work.)Still, it's good that you know a nice piece of ass when you see it, Straw.
Posted by: blu at April 25, 2007 04:12 PM (xPHoc)
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Radical Redneck,
While it's true that Hitler was a socialist, I don't think Straw would find his nationalism appealing. That doesn't jibe well with Strawman's prevailing "I'm a citizen of the world" sentiments.
And, no, it's not the whole killing-the-Jews thing that turns him off to ol' Adolph. Stalin did it too. Just ask Trotsky about icepicks sometime.
Though, I wouldn't be surprised if this old Soviet axiom applies to Straw: "In Soviet Russia, the ass fucks you!"
Posted by: reagan80 at April 25, 2007 07:08 PM (gyiuI)
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Annie,
Similar, but not exact. I think she's fatter than Savage, but I could be wrong as he has better access to In n' Out. Get back to me on this if you can.
Pursuit
Posted by: Pursuit at April 25, 2007 07:23 PM (N155d)
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Reagan, it was an ice AXE. The thing you climb mountains with.
Posted by: Casca at April 25, 2007 07:49 PM (2gORp)
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Casca,
I'm sorry. My mistake. Please forgive the error.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 25, 2007 08:05 PM (gyiuI)
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Hey Ray gun,
Kasha is right-ice ax. I was in Trosky's home in MC where the dirty deed was done. His house is a few blocks from Diego and Frida's house.
Posted by: Strawman at April 26, 2007 07:42 AM (et8nf)
Skadefryd: Kiki On The Ropes
From The Philadelphia Enquirer, rumor has it that Kiki Couric, "an expensive, unfixable mistake," may get the boot next year.
[T]he former star of NBC's Today has failed to move the Nielsen needle on No. 3 Evening News since her debut seven months ago.
In a bottom-line business like television, that's a cardinal sin. Already-low morale in the news division is dropping, says a veteran correspondent there.
"It's a disaster. Everybody knows it's not working. CBS may not cut her loose, but I guarantee you, somebody's thinking about it. We're all hunkered down, waiting for the other shoe to drop."
Seven correspondents, producers and executives at CBS and other networks interviewed for this story spoke on condition of anonymity, given the sensitive nature of the Couric situation.
Couric and CBS were a bad fit from the start.
"From the moment she walked in here, she held herself above everybody else," says a CBS staffer. "We had to live up to her standards. . . . CBS has never dealt in this realm of celebrity before."
Media experts predict Couric's ratings won't improve anytime soon, given that news viewers tend to be older and averse to change.
Couric, 50, draws fewer viewers than did avuncular "interim" anchor Bob Schieffer, 20 years her senior. Much of the feature-oriented format she debuted with is gone, as is her first executive producer, Rome Hartman.
"The broadcast is an abject failure, by any measure," says Rich Hanley, director of graduate programs at the School of Communications at Quinnipiac University.
"They gambled that viewers wanted a softer, less-dramatic presentation of the news, and they lost. It's not fair to blame Couric for everything, but she's certainly the centerpiece and deserves a fair share."
CBS Evening News this season averages 7.319 million total viewers, down 5 percent from the same period a year ago, according to Nielsen Media Research.
Couric's viewership has dropped nearly 30 percent since her Sept. 5 premiere week, when she averaged an inflated 10.2 million viewers and led CBS News to its first Nielsen win since June 2001.
"A bad fit from the start" is an understatement. To be absolutely fair, I would also use the descriptors "lightweight" and "clueless bimbo."
Have you watched Couric lately? Talk about deer in the headlights, she makes Kathleen Blanco look like the embodiment of "confidence" by comparison.
1
CBS had the opportunity to climb out of the whole they were in, but instead chose to keep digging.
Posted by: Casca at April 23, 2007 03:54 PM (2gORp)
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Yet another unqualified affirmative action hire.
And she really is dumb. I'd rather listen to Barbara Boxer or Nancy Pelosi and those two are painfully stupid.
Posted by: blu at April 23, 2007 05:30 PM (pXoDI)
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" I'd rather listen to Barbara Boxer or Nancy Pelosi..." Now that's really below the belt. I cannot stand Katie Couric, but I'd rather go on a 4-week holiday with her than spend an hour with Pelosi, or that incredible nincompoop Barbara Boxer. As insufferable as she is, Couric isn't even in the same universe as that moron Boxer.
Posted by: DBrooks at April 23, 2007 06:17 PM (ONXKf)
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It's a scandal that national media covered up that Couric read out scripted, plagiarized personal memories of getting her first library card. Come on! She has to read scripted personal memories?!
Can you imagine if, say, Limbaugh or O'Reilly were caught, dead to rights, doing such a thing? They would be roasted on Leno and Letterman every night for a solid month - or more. They would be roasted on Sat Night Live and The Daily Show for weeks and weeks and weeks. Their scripted personal memories would be re-referenced, for ridicule, for a decade. Hollywood Movies would reference their deception.
Posted by: gcotharn at April 23, 2007 07:44 PM (8Tce2)
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Scheiffer was great; I'd go bck to listen to him...
Kiki should go back to morning hosting and learn to cross her legs again.
Posted by: shelly at April 23, 2007 08:24 PM (2nDll)
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I think it'd be really funny if they'd let James Lipton from Inside the Actors Studio be the news anchor. I watched the "Hell's Grannies" sketch from Monty Python on You Tube today and it's not that far off from today's t.v. news.
Posted by: Joules at April 23, 2007 08:58 PM (u4CYb)
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"I cannot stand Katie Couric, but I'd rather go on a 4-week holiday with her than spend an hour with Pelosi, or that incredible nincompoop Barbara Boxer."
LOL.
OK, you got me, DBrooks - that might have been too much :-)
Posted by: blu at April 23, 2007 09:00 PM (pXoDI)
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"I cannot stand Katie Couric, but I'd rather go on a 4-week holiday with her than spend an hour with Pelosi, or that incredible nincompoop Barbara Boxer."
I'd rather toss her salad after an all U can eat Taco Bell™ buffet!
Posted by: Radical Redneck at April 24, 2007 09:55 AM (BPS4S)
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LOL @ "Have you watched Couric lately? Talk about deer in the headlights, she makes Kathleen Blanco look like the embodiment of "confidence" by comparison."
Posted by: Mark at April 25, 2007 11:27 AM (2MrBP)
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Growing up during the days of the big three and only the big three I can muster little sympathy for Couric or her ilk. At some point I discovered what we were fed every night was not without a left lean and that the anchors had no regard for political thought outside the confines of the Hudson and East Rivers.
Now we truly have Freedom of information and can pick from alot of newscasts or a different source all together. It's all still biased but at least we can choose which way it's slanted. I wish National Review did a news program every night!
Did I get off subject again?
Posted by: Mike C. at April 25, 2007 05:47 PM (A5s0y)
Bradford Wiles Update
Remember a few posts ago, I quoted from a prescient op-ed by VT grad student Bradford Wiles, published eight months ago?
Well, somebody did track Wiles down for his comment on this week's horrific event. Here's what he said:
On Tuesday, Wiles stood by that opinion in the wake of this week's massacre, telling Cybercast News Service that "the only way to stop someone with a gun is somebody else with a gun."
"The entire campus was a place where someone knew they could inflict the most damage with the least amount of armed resistance, and that's what you get with gun control," Wiles said. "If you let people like myself carry a gun legally ... then you have the possibility of stemming the tide."
Wiles, who wasn't near the campus buildings where Monday's shootings took place, said he doesn't believe an armed student could have prevented all of the bloodshed. But, he added, "even if just one person is not shot by that gunman because somebody had their legally licensed concealed firearm on them, isn't that enough?"
Posted by: Casca at April 20, 2007 06:40 AM (Y7t14)
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For a few months, I lived in tiny village (*cough* settlement *cough*) in Israel. One night, a terrorist snuck in to a home there, and killed an extremely nice guy named Danny Frei. Danny died defending his wife and kids, although (if I recall correctly) the terrorist succeeded in attacking his wife and killing their unborn child.
That would be the last violent crime in that town.
Forget about M-16's, Uzi's, and the Glocks & 1911's that even the Rabbis carried. Two 10x10x10 reinforced concrete boxes in the center of town. Machine guns. Grenades. Artillery.
Posted by: taxlawmax at April 20, 2007 11:16 AM (WgtqY)
NBC Completely And Irresponsibly Throws Standards Out The Window
In pursuit of $ensationalism and the almighty ratings point, NBC proves that there is no longer any such thing as responsible media. Oh, Brian Williams made a big show about "not wanting to make Cho into a hero," even while holding up the pictures Cho intended to cement himself into the popular mythology.
NBC should have shredded the entire package immediately, not even handed it to the police, just burnt it as surely as Cho is burning in hell right now. Do they really think there aren't future sickos who will idolize Cho and memorize every word in his multimedia manifesto? Do they really think there's any possible journalistic justification that outweighs the virtual gaurantee that someone will idolize and imitate Cho the same way Cho idolized and imitated the Columbine murderers? Do they not understand that publishing the pictures and airing the video only gives the next mass murderer something to outdo?
Fucking assholes! But when the next mass murderer cryptically references the VT killer in his manifesto, you won't hear NBC or their ilk pointing the finger at themselves for creating the "cult of Cho." No, next time it will be "lax gun laws" all over again, and "easy availability of weapons," and "the incredible firepower of the nine millimeter," and "the NRA lobbyists," etc.
1
I was equally upset with NBC, but while watching the video I couldn't help the fact that I was waiting the entire time for him to say, "Tina, come get your food."
I'm a bad, bad man.
Posted by: Frank at April 19, 2007 06:17 AM (YHZAl)
2
Annika,
It can't be helped, nor do I think the suppression or release of his grandiosity makes any difference. Whether the next shooter makes a VT reference or a Columbine is irrelevant. The anger/rage/sadness whatever you want to call it, which motivates this horrible response is not dependent upon precedent otherwise there would never have been a first. It takes no priming of the pump for this type of disordered personality to recognize who his oppressors are and victims will be. The previous incidents may give him better ideas for enacting his particular attack but don't be fooled into thinking that they incite him or without them he will be powerless to act. People are resourceful they will, if there is not a blueprint available, always draw their own.
Posted by: Strawman at April 19, 2007 07:32 AM (9ySL4)
3
Strawman, there is truth in what you say. The next time may be inevitable, but I still think NBC was wrong to provide the extra inspiration.
"It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!"
How long until we see t-shirts with Cho's two fisted pose on it?
Posted by: annika at April 19, 2007 07:55 AM (WfR6S)
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Annika,
Quoting the bible at me is always an effective tool of persuasion.
I certainly don't want anybody influenced or inspired but neither do I want to live in a society where the fourth estate self censures so as not to inspire someone having a psychotic episode. Freedom and the free exchange of ideas does not come without a price. I would not want to be the one telling the parents of a dead student that, but it is true.
But, I hope never to see the T shirt. BTW, have you ever seen a pro Columbine T? I
Posted by: Strawman at April 19, 2007 10:27 AM (9ySL4)
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I actually kinda lean towards releasing it, even though I definitely hear the argument for keeping the "multimedia manifesto" (read: pics & web cam shots) under wraps.
An obviously sick guy like Cho apparently isn't hard to spot; it looks like several people spotted him as whacked on several occasions. So it's not like you'll watch his videos and go, "Ohhh.... so that's what a guy who's about to kill 32 people acts like... hmmm." On the other hand, I do think that you'd get some sort of awareness of the themes and nuances of his persona that might help you keep alert to more subtle manifestations of problems in people around you.
Like, say, posting pictures of Sir Connery a few too many times (reagan) or defending the social "choices" of "loners" who stay at home on the computer too much and get no love from the ladies (mark).
Bottom line: yeah, information can be harmful, but if it's true, it always tells you something about reality that you might be able to apply in other situations. Maybe the best idea would be to delay the release so that it wouldn't be so terribly exciting to any potential shooters.
Posted by: taxlawmax at April 19, 2007 11:11 AM (dLe9c)
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The system failed the victims. They waited for the authorities to react. That would be the same authorities who recognized that this guy was nuts. The system couldn't expel the guy from school, or involuntarily treat him for his mental disorder, or even allow the fact that he was dangerous to be flagged when he purchased his guns.
Do you really believe some sort of new gun law is going to protect you from the 200 million firearms already in the country? Not to mention the fact that worse mass murders have been done with airplanes, fertilizer, and gasoline?
If somebody credibly threatens your life, the authorities can't protect you. They do stand ready to prosecute your killer.
Be careful out there.
Posted by: MarkD at April 19, 2007 12:47 PM (5vbH6)
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I endorse your entire statement and I feel and reflect your rage again the media that profits from this never-ending abuse of reason. Harry Reid announces today that the war is lost. The media fails to shout him down. Nancy Pelosi snuggles up to Syria's chief terrorist in furthering the Democrats' Alternative Foreign Policy. The media fails to shout her down. An imp from Hell kills innocents, and the media rewards his evil with immortality and by channeling cries from tender hearts seeking to understand this sad, angry young Korean.
Years ago, an actor, Raymond Massey, playing the role of John Brown announced just before being hanged for his crimes at Harper's Ferry, VA that he, Brown, understood that this quilty country will have to pay for its sins, in the movie - for permitting slavery to exist and persist, with rivers of blood.
I am quite certain that now this guilty country will have to pay for its sins, its irreconcilable divisions politically and culturally, with the effusion of blood. I suspect that the events at VTech this week are the start of that process.
Posted by: RobS at April 19, 2007 02:03 PM (JzBne)
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RobS.
What ar you talking About? VT and this guilty country's sins? You are correct that this country is guilty of sins, but currently they are against the people of Iraq and the majority of the blood in the rivers is Iraqi. We morn the loss of 31 people this week, killed for no reason. Each day for the last 5 years, 30 or more people die in Iraq for nearly the same reason as those in VT. An insightless appraisal of a complex problem and the pointless, criminal violent spasm that passes for a solution to a deranged morally compromised man. The only thing that I look forward to is the day George Bush wakes up one morning, has a moment of clarity and blows his head off. At least Mr. Cho knew what to do with himself after committing his atrocity unfortunately I can't say the same for George.
Posted by: Strawman at April 19, 2007 02:38 PM (9ySL4)
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Strawman:
You have some problems with your thought process.
Posted by: RobS at April 19, 2007 03:06 PM (vkrRz)
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"Like, say, posting pictures of Sir Connery a few too many times (reagan)"
I'm surprised that nobody has accused me of turning Japanese based on the bulk of my links over the past few weeks.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 19, 2007 06:54 PM (fO04l)
11
Robs,
Calling the situation in Iraq a war certainly speaks volumes about to the problems your thought processes. We are not at war. We are attempting to conquer a country that did not attack us, threaten us, or have any interest in doing so. A fairly civilized country, secular for the most part, bulwark against spread of Islamist governments, more western than every country around them, with civil treatment and opportunities for women, good infrastructure, good cash flow and so forth.
We have wreaked havoc upon them, displaced millions, stimulated ethnic violence that is spiraling out of control, allowed fundamentalist Islam to gain a foothold, ruined the infrastructure, killed possibly a hundred thousand or more civilians and on and on. And you tell me I have a problem thinking? You think the media did not shout down Reid because maybe what he said is true?
We are toast. Iraq is toast. No good will come of it and the bad will continue getting worse. Put 500K soldiers in there and all you will have is more casualties and bombings. They put a fucking bomb in the parliament for ChristÂ’s sake. What the hell are you seeing fella that tells you this is going to come to a good conclusion? What the hell are you seeing that makes you feel safer as a result of this carnage? How do you excuse all the lies you were told about the reasons for and the progress of this debacle, from the cost to the WMD threat, to the bill being paid for with oil revenue? What conflict in history can you point to that lends credence to your belief that this operation has a chance of success?
Posted by: Strawman at April 20, 2007 09:49 AM (9ySL4)
12 You are correct that this country is guilty of sins, but currently they are against the people of Iraq and the majority of the blood in the rivers is Iraqi. We morn the loss of 31 people this week, killed for no reason. Each day for the last 5 years, 30 or more people die in Iraq for nearly the same reason as those in VT.
This comparison is asinine.
Posted by: Mark at April 20, 2007 10:36 AM (2MrBP)
13
RobS was correct indeed. Boy was he.
We have wreaked havoc upon them, displaced millions, stimulated ethnic violence that is spiraling out of control, allowed fundamentalist Islam to gain a foothold, ruined the infrastructure, killed possibly a hundred thousand or more civilians and on and on.
Permit me to shake you out of your "blame America first" mentality.
"We" have not done these things. Try focusing on those who have committed 99% of the violence in IRaq.
And make sure not to let one accomplishment penetrate your thinking, assuming you are aware of the accomplishments that have already occurred. And there are many.
You think the media did not shout down Reid because maybe what he said is true?
Reid is an irresponsible and reckless man and his statements provide aid and comfort to the enemy.
We are toast. Iraq is toast. No good will come of it and the bad will continue getting worse.
How positive can you get.
Straw, we already are familiar with your longing for the defeat of your nation, and that it is a convenient means of bringing the military home.
Consequences be damned.
For a person who has expressed concern about our international reputation, you aren't so concerned when openly saying We are toast. Iraq is toast. No good will come of it and the bad will continue getting worse.
Announcing to the world our defeat. Yes that will help our reputation abroad. During WWII, a common expression was "Loose Lips Can Sink Ships." Now we have "Iraq is lost."
Posted by: Mark at April 20, 2007 10:49 AM (2MrBP)
14
Straw,
"A fairly civilized country, secular for the most part, bulwark against spread of Islamist governments, more western than every country around them, with civil treatment and opportunities for women, good infrastructure, good cash flow and so forth."
Your statement is inane. It's not even close to accurate. Who do you think your audience is? Nearly every word in it is inaccurate or misleading.
If you want to argue that the war isn't going well that is fine and, partly, accurate; but don't insult those of us with 3-digit IQs with such a ridiculous, bullshit assessment of pre-war Iraq.
Posted by: blu at April 20, 2007 12:42 PM (pXoDI)
15
Mark,
Our reputation abroad has nowhere to go but up. Bush is a laughing stock and we his flunkies and victims. The incredulity that is universally expressed around the world is how the fuck did a country that is supposed to be comprised of mostly educated people allow a pandering, ignorant schmuck to be president. TWICE. The first time the consensus is he lost but our third world election process, coupled with voter suppression, willful confusion of the elderly and a partisan supreme court inserted the dummy into office. The second election is the one that really has them scratching their heads.
Posted by: Strawman at April 20, 2007 12:52 PM (9ySL4)
16
"Straw, we already are familiar with your longing for the defeat of your nation"
That's why you should not waste your time responding to him.
We got the point already. Instead of viewing the Iraq expedition as a benevolent nation-building campaign gone FUBAR, he views our military's mission as evil. Of course, he desired our military's failure since he deemed the goals unjust from the start. We already know about his hostility towards private military contractors, so it is hard to believe that he doesn't harbor such feelings for our troops just because they are lower-paid gov't employees.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 20, 2007 12:57 PM (fO04l)
17
Blu,
It ain't a war. Lets call it by its name. Invasion. And "not going well" is what we say when somebody returns to the hospital with an infection in a wound. WHen they come back and their entire body is on fire we use other phrases.
Posted by: Strawman at April 20, 2007 12:59 PM (9ySL4)
18
Ragun,
You dumb ass, How is it that you can't parse the difference between hoping for our military defeat and hoping for a common sense decision that protects our soldiers and limits the damage to Iraq in this immoral invasion. Yes. I don't agree with the goals. No, that does not mean 911 made me happy, or I love OSB, or any other selfserving bullshit idea you dribble down your chin. This is a tragedy of enormous proportion and has caused needless pain and suffering for millions of people. Do not belittle it with your stupid school yard associations and cackling.
Posted by: Strawman at April 20, 2007 01:09 PM (9ySL4)
19
"the consensus is he lost..."
Ahhh, no its not. He won every valid recount - as the Left-wings rags, The New York Times and The WAPO pointed out in their investigations. The only people who think he lost are people like you, Straw - conspiratorial nutters, who never have proof but always have opinions.
And, please, no more nonsense about voter supression - there is absolutely ZERO evidence of that conspiracy theory. (And, yes, I read the BS AP "story" released yesterday about the administration's policy about actually caring about illegal voting. Yet another MSM hit-piece masquarading as journalism. You'll notice when reading the article closely that the administration has not done a single thing illegal, but the writer attempts to manipulate the reader into thinking there is something actually sinister going on when somebody wants to implement a policy insisting that a person proves he is who he says he is when voting. Yeah, you can't cash a check without ID, but go ahead and fucking vote all you want. And, of course, if its a Democrat there is a good chance that person is voting more than once.)
Clinton Is In Trouble
I still think she'll win the nomination, but clearly Senator Clinton is in a dogfight. The RealClearPolitics average has her leading Bronco Bomber by only 6 points!
Update: More at Wizbang. Hillary's favorable/unfavorable rating is in freefall too.
1
hay....
I like your blog...
cool design, simple but complicated.
nice
________________
THING IS
________________
i saw that lindsay letter u've snet to her...
what was the response? what happent?
who sent it, for who , to who???
i didnt get a point
... think is i just whant to contact her somehow, im not some kind of a freaky fan or something , i just what to tell her my opinion about her work, and her as a person, i realy like her on some special way. i would like to be a some kind of a pen friend with her and that kinda stuff if you get me...
i just whant to tell her what i mean
_____________
btw that thing with lindsay email is good thing for your blog...
if anyone's looking for her mail trough google he is gona be linked to here for sure...
Like your blog, visit my ( soon im gona make oen on english language ;P)
plz respond
Byeeeee
Darkie
Posted by: Darkie at April 18, 2007 09:59 AM (CospR)
2
ROTFL!
stop it Radical Redneck! you're killin me.
Posted by: annika at April 18, 2007 10:10 AM (zAOEU)
Posted by: Darkie at April 18, 2007 10:14 AM (CospR)
4
Oh i have been saddened by the distence between us lindsay and i long to feel yor touch
like romeo asking wher juliette was i ask can it ever bee
i feel like when my dog ran away - lonely w/o u
liek a teen band i wana becom famous
Theirs no place like a place with u i want to bathe in yor luv like a flower constantly releasing it's scent this is my feeling for you
whn i cryed out yor name at yor window Why dont you love me I said i feel it beautifully
write me lindsay write me
5
hehe...
Hey Annika, what makes you think you'll have to stop blogging just cuz you're taking the Cali Bar? C'mon, it's not that bad. At least give us 'till the standard "I'll get serious about BarBri when July 1 rolls around" grace period.
Posted by: taxlawmax at April 18, 2007 10:50 AM (dLe9c)
Posted by: Darkie at April 18, 2007 11:45 AM (CospR)
9
TaxLawMax,
Our only hope is that the power of Sean Connery will compel Annika to keep this place running.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 18, 2007 04:22 PM (fO04l)
10
Reagan, I'm beginning to think you've got
a thing for Sean.
Posted by: taxlawmax at April 18, 2007 08:40 PM (P5vpr)
11
Taxlawmax has a point, Annika. I blogged while I studied for the Cal bar, and turned out mostly okay for it.
Granted, pretty much everything I blogged about was bar exam-related. Which probably bored some of my readers. Or like. Most of them. Erm. Probably almost all.
Hm. Maybe it's not such a great idea after all.
Posted by: The Law Fairy at April 18, 2007 09:13 PM (sfW9u)
12
That's definitely the worst part about studying for the bar. Your head becomes so grossly bloated with legal morsels that you can't help but spew them out even when, say, your wife tries to gag you every time you get that "holy shit! I actually remember something from BarBri about that!" look.
Posted by: taxlawmax at April 18, 2007 10:35 PM (P5vpr)
13
I have it on good authority that reagan80 isn't really into those of the phallic gender. His perceived homo-ness is merely a facade to lull women into a false sense of security at clubs. I heard that once he gets close enough, he will then proceed to dry hump some poor bitch's elbow before being forcefully ejected from the premises.
Ladies, wear long sleeves.
Posted by: Spanky at April 19, 2007 07:53 AM (fO04l)
14
anybody ever see Zardoz?
four words:
Connery in high heels...
Posted by: annika at April 19, 2007 10:39 AM (zAOEU)
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 19, 2007 11:48 AM (xHyDY)
16
Me? A closet queen? What gives you that idea?
Speaking of Queen, they did the theme song to a flick that he starred in, The Highlander, and might I add that he looked absolutely fabulous wearing that ear ring. Boy, I sure do enjoy a good movie with guys impaling each other.
To answer Annika's question, I barely remember seeing a portion of ZARDOZ on the TBS channel back when I was in pre-school or something. In fact, she has brought back some of my lost childhood memories because, back then, I thought it starred a young Burt Reynolds. That movie kind of freaked me out at the time, but today it makes me laugh my fucking ass off. That is pure gold! Thanks, Annie!
Posted by: reagan80 at April 19, 2007 06:10 PM (fO04l)
More Thoughts On VA Tech
Here are some more random thoughts on the shooting, which occurred to me throughout the day.
The touchy-feely methods of preventing this type of violence failed miserably yesterday. For instance, one oft-cited preventive measure is for faculty members to watch for signs of a troubled loner with possible violent tendencies, then send him to counseling. This was done in Cho's case, by one of his English professors, to no avail.
After Columbine there was no end to the re-education and awareness-raising on the dangers of bullying. Kids were taught not to make fun of outcasts, but to be nice to them. Again, in Cho's case, members of his peer group tried to befriend the loner during sophomore year. One said they invited him to lunch, tried to get him to laugh and come out of his "funk." Again, this was done, to no avail. He apparently did laugh during the lunch, but it didn't change anything.
Time Magazine, perhaps the most ridiculously out-of-touch major news source in America today, professes to know "how to make campuses safer." Frikkin joke. Here's the best they came up with:
Some schools like Princeton train professors how to spot signs of depression, and access to mental-health services is a big part of preventive efforts on many campuses. Students, faculty and staff are encouraged to tell someone if they see suspicious or troubling activity. Says Gene Burton, public safety director at Ball State University: "You need to get everyone on board." But as colleges and universities learned on Monday, it often takes a tragedy to expose just how many weaknesses there are in the system.
As I wrote above, they did that! It didn't work! Time Magazine... clueless fukkin idiots.
More: OMG, not to be outdone, CNN is just about as clueless as Time Magazine. No wonder they're joined at the hip.
Watch this video, which contains the absolutely hilarious warning that a semi-automatic handgun can fire bullets "as fast as you can pull the trigger!"
Dun-dun-dun duuuunnnh!
If anyone knows of a gun on the market that does not shoot bullets "as fast as you can pull the trigger," please let me know. I will make sure I don't have any of the manufacturer's stock in my portfolio.
1
Doesn't it seem like there's more vocal support to respond to mass shootings by allowing people to defend themselves than there has been in the past?
I mean, it's a little different this time around. Columbine was kids. But even looking around at the leftist media around D.C., I get the feeling that people who may not have been in favor of concealed carry laws might be getting sick of the touchie-feelie response and looking for something a bit more sensible. Is it just me?
Posted by: taxlawmax at April 18, 2007 08:21 AM (dLe9c)
2
As is usually the case with such tragedies, the media can't resist to latch on to the "loner" label while ignoring the fact that serial killers like Gacy, Bundy, and Manson, were/are gregarious extroverts. By definition, loners are merely people who prefer to avoid large amounts of stimulation, who aren't bothered by solitude, who tend to be overwhelmed by crowds and noise, but the media associates it with "serial killer with no sex life."
Posted by: Mark at April 18, 2007 09:04 AM (2MrBP)
3
The best commentary I've seen so far is Michelle Malkin's (and I'm not a huge Malkin fan): http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MichelleMalkin/2007/04/18/wanted_a_culture_of_self-defense
But she's really just cribbing Jeffrey Snyder's classic, "A Nation of Cowards": http://www.rkba.org/comment/cowards.html
Posted by: Matt` at April 18, 2007 11:42 AM (10G2T)
4
This post is being considered for The Sacramento Bee's roundup of regional blogs, which appears Sunday in Forum.
The Blog Watch column is limited to about 800 words. Blog posts included in the column are often trimmed to fit. The blog's main address will appear in The Bee, and the online copy of the article will contain links to the actual blog post.
If you have questions (or you DON'T want your blog post considered for inclusion in the newspaper column), contact me at greed@sacbee.com"
Gary Reed
Forum Editor
Posted by: Gary Reed at April 18, 2007 05:36 PM (NcZjP)
5
The logic is inescapable. (1) there is no way to really predict or stop a whacko. (2) there is no way to stop whacko from getting guns in a nation that can't even keep humans out of its borders.
(3)therefore either a policeman on every block, or an armed citizenry is necessary to keep death tolls down from either this, or other criminal actions.
Now, I am sure that the campus had several older students, many might have been ex-military. What if they had been authorized to carry firearms? Maybe the death count would not have been so high.
Of course I don't expect this or any other logic to work on leftoids.
Posted by: kyle N at April 19, 2007 03:06 AM (RMrHW)
Tech Shooting
The point has been made over and over again, and I'm sure I don't need to mention it on this blog, but I'll do it anyway.
It's ironic that some people who are criticizing the school for its response to the initial shootings this morning are the same people who will be calling for tighter gun control in the future.
If we learned anything from Katrina, it's the same thing we learned again today:
You cannot rely on the government to protect you from every harm!
In a land where the citizenry is unarmed, the government is the only thing that stands between a criminal and his victim. Thus, the one thing these types of shooters know is that all they need to do is outsmart the government in order to accomplish their evil.
Government, specifically the police, do certain things well, but preventing random acts of violence is not one of them. They can only respond after the fact. And the difference between that first 911 call and the arrival of SWAT (usually after the shooter has killed himself) today was measured in 32 innocent lives.
So when people ask "why didn't the school officials shut down the school right away?" the answer is, "well, I guess they fucked up." (Even though on a campus the size of Virginia Tech, I'm not sure that was practical, or that it would have even prevented the tragedy. Who's to say he wouldn't have found some other populated place to go on his rampage?)
Yes, government fucks up sometimes. Recognize this reality. Embrace it. Own it. Because the sooner we realize that government cannot gaurantee our safety, the sooner we'll stop willingly handing away our right to protect ourselves.
Still more: I wonder if anyone in the MSM will contact VT grad student Bradford B. Wiles, just to see if his opinion has changed any by the events of today. My guess would be no on both counts.
Mr. Giles wrote the following in an op-ed published last August, after he had been evacuated from a campus building in the previous on-campus incident.
I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school because of Virginia Tech's student policy, which makes possession of a handgun an expellable offense, but not a prosecutable crime.
I had entrusted my safety, and the safety of others to the police. In light of this, there are a few things I wish to point out.
First, I never want to have my safety fully in the hands of anyone else, including the police.
Second, I considered bringing my gun with me to campus, but did not due to the obvious risk of losing my graduate career, which is ridiculous because had I been shot and killed, there would have been no graduate career for me anyway.
Third, and most important, I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the town of Blacksburg onto Virginia Tech's campus.
Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness.
Two law enforcement officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced, said Cho's fingerprints were found on the guns used in both shootings. The serial numbers on the two weapons had been filed off, the officials said.
One law enforcement official said Cho's backpack contained a receipt for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol.
Did anyone think to ask why Cho would go through the trouble of filing off the serial numbers, then carry the receipt around with him?!?!!? Something is not right with that story. Why would somebody take the receipt with him on a shooting rampage? Especially after filing the serial numbers off (which isn't easy by the way)? Gun receipts are multi-page documents, at least mine is. If you ask me, it would be real convenient for the gun-grabbers if they could say this gun was bought legally just a few weeks ago.
Must-read:Publicola deconstructs the incident in his inimitable way.
[I]t has been preached from every rooftop of every school that resistance is bad. We even had a politician proposing using books as bullet proof shields as a solution to school violence. Not too long ago a teacher in Texas was "re-assigned" because he dared teach his students to fight back even if unarmed. For a number of reasons political & cultural we simply do not on the whole wish to face the idea that violence is an acceptable option in any situation.
That, & not the school's reaction (or lack thereof) contributed to the deaths & injuries at VT. [links omitted]
My friend Publicola says he can't take credit for my becoming a gun owner. That's wrong. It was he and Katrina that made me take the leap. Unfortunately, in California, the gun laws are designed to prevent self-defense. But as my sidebar quiz shows, if somebody busts into my home, I won't be jumping out the second story window.
1
Bingo. Just changed a few minds at my office as we were all watching the headlines on the cafeteria TV... I muttered, "imagine if just two students in that classroom were carrying..."
Posted by: taxlawmax at April 17, 2007 06:44 AM (dLe9c)
Posted by: reagan80 at April 17, 2007 06:53 AM (fO04l)
3
Ex law enforcement officer - forgot if he was FBI or some other branch - was being interviewed on MSNBC yesterday. I was going nuts when the reporter was asking some really dumb questions ('How fast can this (reloading of a pistol) happen?' 'Well, we trained our agents to reload within a couple of seconds, it's possible for anyone to reload a gun quickly...' (note: paraphrase; I don't have the transcript in front of me))... but then the reporter opened the question up to the idea of gun control, and the man came out and clearly stated that his experience taught him that gun control laws only keep weapons out of law abiding citizens hands (I remember he came out and said "I'm for lawful gun ownership", and the context was clear that he didn't mean for hunting or target shooting at a range). He went on about how his experience, talking about how only lawful people turned in guns in gun buyback programs, and how criminals were the first to ignore those programs.
In the end, it turned out to be a great interview. And even better, when the ex-officer/agent said what he did, the interviewer didn't try to steer him away from his claims. She kept the normal gun control rhetoric out of it, which is something I haven't seen for a long, long time.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 17, 2007 07:00 AM (xHyDY)
4
They just announced that the shooter was a South Korean on a student visa studying English. Oh man, do I know this story. ROK's coming to the states to study English are usually on a year long party. Then they have to go home, and explain why they don't know how to speak English. Can't wait to hear Kevin's side of this.
Posted by: Casca at April 17, 2007 07:03 AM (Y7t14)
5
I didn't know the 2nd Amendment applied to non-citizens either.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 17, 2007 07:47 AM (fO04l)
6"(Even though on a campus the size of Virginia Tech, I'm not sure that was practical, or that it would have even prevented the tragedy. Who's to say he wouldn't have found some other populated place to go on his rampage?)"
The university administration has blood on its hands.
After the initial shootings around 7AM, the university was well aware that an armed man who had just committed two murders was still at large.
And their solution was a mass e-mail.
True, perhaps shutting down the campus would have achieved little or nothing, but to have left everything functioning as normal seemed like the concern was more on P.R. and less the safety of VT students.
Posted by: Mark at April 17, 2007 08:01 AM (2MrBP)
7
I wouldn't jump to conclusions on that either way. It looks like they had reason to believe that the first shootings related to a "domestic" dispute. Would you say that the police were negligent if they didn't shut down scores of blocks or an entire city every time a guy shoots his girlfriend (or vice versa) in a private house?
You could argue, however, that the university assumed total responsibility for student safety because it closed off avenues of self-protection (no carrying) and purported to provide a safe environment for the members of the school community (lame security guards? Tech police?). I'm not sure if I buy that either, though.
Posted by: taxlawmax at April 17, 2007 08:09 AM (dLe9c)
8
Casca,
I'm about to head off to bed (13-hour difference between Seoul and DC), but I can say this: an email from a friend of mine said that one Korean anchor's reaction to the killings was to say something like, "We hope this doesn't lead to racism." In other words, the ethnic/national angle is more important than the brute fact that thirty-two people were slaughtered. No "our hearts go out to the victims," no "we are all Americans now," but "uh-oh, they gonna be hatin' on Koreans."
I conjectured to a friend that Korean Netizen chatter will include some "those fucking Americans deserved this" remarks from the Kornazi end of the spectrum. Such remarks won't represent the majority opinion, but they won't be a tiny minority, either.
There will be a lot more such histrionic navel-gazing in the Korean media in the days to come as questions about "face" and "race" will surface. (Not that such questions are ever far from the surface in a society like South Korea's.)
Be sure to check out places like The Marmot's Hole (this post in particular) for up-to-the-minute blogging on this and other Korean issues. Those guys never sleep, and their comments sections are pretty wild. The place gets over 2000 unique visits a day, so you know how it is.
Kevin
PS: Don't be shy about checking my blog on occasion, too, though to be honest, I'm about blogged out on this. For now, anyway.
PPS: The guy was a Korean national, but has been living in the States since he was 3. I guess this means his note (the contents of which I'd like to know) was likely in English. Burn in hell, Cho.
Posted by: Kevin Kim at April 17, 2007 09:10 AM (1PcL3)
9
I love Korea, the people and the culture, and I couldn't say that about any other country in Asia. Cho won't change that. Pass the kimchae my brutha.
Posted by: Casca at April 17, 2007 09:24 AM (Y7t14)
10
Brilliant post, Annika!
Rush is doing a magnificent job breaking this event down this morning from the perspective of how the MSM/Left - after all, they are really part of the same entity - is trying to politicize a single event by a crazed, evil lunatic, attempting to treat it as a microcosm of America.
As we should have expected, some Lefty nutter in the House is already blaming, you guessed it, Bush.
Between the MSM's handling and the Left's reaction to Duke, Imus, and VT, it is becoming even more obvious how far these people will go to politicize any event, using whatever ready-to-use template is available.
Can't wait to hear Rosie's take on this.....
Posted by: blu at April 17, 2007 09:42 AM (pXoDI)
11
It was a domestic dispute; he was in her place at 7:15 A.M.; what does that tell us?
Then, he went home and picked up the other artillery and ammo.
He set out to deal with her, (maybe with her and the guy he blew away) but changed his plan after he killed them.
So, why are the idiots calling for resignations for the Chief of Police and the President of VT? HOw far will this Imus crap go?
Damn, why not blame the girl for blowing him off?
Does anybody ever think that the perp is the bad guy anymore???
Posted by: shelly at April 17, 2007 11:32 AM (h/YdH)
12
No one's discussing the obvious solution - if you eliminate students from the universities, you won't have these problems.
There's one parallel between Virginia Tech and 9/11. In both cases, a horrible event occurred, and no one (or very few people) conceived that the terrible event could occur a second time. The strategy of multiple nearly-simultaneous attacks, whether performed by a lone gunman or by an organization, has become very deadly.
Yet are we now obligated to assume that this will always occur? I don't think so.
Posted by: Ontario Emperor at April 17, 2007 12:02 PM (xJ+oA)
13
good point Shelly. i tend to doubt that the dude was there so early because he had spent the night. From everything i've heard today about him, he seems like too much of a loser. i think he probably went there early to catch the girl with her guy.
and the fact that he bought so many extra clips tends to indicate premeditation for the mass killing later. it was all planned.
Posted by: annika at April 17, 2007 01:55 PM (zAOEU)
14
Notice the "alleged" shooter is from C(r)apitalist South Korea and "supposedly" perpetrated this horror in Adoph Chimpler's C(r)apitalist America. Do you ever see North Koreans perpetrating atrocities like this?
This PROVES Socialism is SUPERIOR!
Posted by: isitstinky at April 18, 2007 02:17 PM (xVizk)
Annika Asks Her Readers 2.0
What do you think? Will the Don Imus auto da fe, recently concluded, have the unintended result of making it easier to execute Rosie O'Donald when she makes her inevitable next outrageous statement?
In other words, is the threshold of firable offenses now so low that Rosie will no longer be able to get away with the shit she's been pulling for months on The View?
Or does the Imus controversy have no relevance to Rosie, since the culturally designated Torquemadas, Sharpton and Jackson, are unlikely to be offended by anything Rosie might say?
1
Sorry, I have nothing to personally offer on this subject, except....SKIPPY!
[If you offend a given ethnic group, you feel compelled to beg that community's sleaziest members for redemption. It stands to reason that the next time someone says something shitty about whitey, they'll be required to have themselves photographed making a pilgrimage to the grave of Byron De La Beckwith.If America has really been reduced to taking sides in a pissing match between two amoral shitheads like Don Imus and Al Sharpton, maybe the terrorists should win.]
Posted by: reagan80 at April 12, 2007 04:47 PM (fO04l)
2
Funny that you should bring up Torquemada in relation to Al Sharpton. Roger L. Simon just posted in that very same vein earlier today.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 12, 2007 06:53 PM (J+r3D)
3
Rosie may be a fool for saying things about 9/11, with respect to the collapse of WTC7, but in the grand scheme of things, her stupidity is not as bad as racial offensiveness. Thus, while I wouldn't miss her, I don't think Imus's big mouth is going to make her easier to get rid of.
Posted by: Bigfoot at April 12, 2007 07:11 PM (A5s0y)
4
What about Rosie's mockery of Asians, with her "ching chong" comments? It wasn't directed at any individuals, but I'd argue that's at least as bad as what Imus said.
Posted by: annika at April 12, 2007 07:19 PM (WfR6S)
5
So long as Rosie merely limits her targets to the Bush Administration, Republicans and conservatives in general, the Pope, Christianity and the Donald, she has carte blanche to say anything she wants, no matter how outrageous. It is absurd for Big Foot to suggest that her extended remarks about WTC-7, basically accusing the U.S. government (led by George W. Bush, of course) of murdering its own citizens on 9/11, is less harmful than Imus' few seconds of infamy. I assure you that tomorrow she could acuse Mitt Romney of polygamy with pre-teenage girls and no one on the View panel or in her studio audience would raise a squeak in protest.
Posted by: Ralph Kostant at April 12, 2007 08:01 PM (oNsms)
6
Exactly Ralph. Imus made the mistake of slagging a protected species. He should have stuck to bashing Catholics and Jews as was his forte'
Posted by: Radical Redneck at April 12, 2007 09:33 PM (QizG9)
7
Being a rug muncher too, Rosie has an extra trump (pun intended) card to play. She can go on a rant ala Daniel Carver (Stern's KKK guy) and scream homophobia at any objection. Her objectors WILL end up facing Hate Crime persecution.
Posted by: Radical Redneck at April 12, 2007 09:38 PM (QizG9)
8
If Rosie insults a Rastafarian, it's all over for her.
Posted by: Ontario Emperor at April 12, 2007 11:09 PM (P8ktI)
Posted by: Casca at April 12, 2007 11:12 PM (2gORp)
10
Draw your own discrimination pyramid. Those at the top can insult down, and at the same level, but never up.
Casca said it. I'd elaborate by saying I feel compelled to be polite by default, and by those who are polite to me. Otherwise, why bother with rude people? There is no upside to dealing with them.
Posted by: MarkD at April 13, 2007 04:13 AM (5vbH6)
11
I don't give a damn about Rosie's "ching chong" episode, and I am asian. The thing that bugs me to no end is her stupid acceptance of such physically impossible groupthink invovled in 9/11 denial. she went to grade school, and presumably high school, so she's supposed to be smarter than that!
And no, I know we can take cheap shots at her intelligence, but I mean it: If she went to high school and passed basic physics and was exposed to elementary logic, then she should be smart enough not to fall for conspiracy fantasy. Yet she does, either because (as Dennis Miller thinks) she's trying to dig at Bush but doesn't truly believe it, or (as I think) because she really does believe it and it dovetails nicely with her anti-Bush mindset. So fine, she hates Bush. So does the 911 Truthiness blogger, and he doesn't fall prey to believing in stupid, illogical things in order to facilitate that hate. But Rosie does. If she has a basic education, she should be smarter than that. But she chooses to indulge in conspiracy fantasy, so the only conclusion is that she's being deliberately stupid. And that's the worst stance of all: Let me submerge any intelligence I have just to side with folks I agree with. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
That's what pisses me off about her.
Oh, to be on topic: I don't even put Imus in the same boat as Rosie. His stuff was stupidly provocative and, if I'm reading things right, needlessly offensive, true, but you're talking about a whole other level of delusion when it comes to Rosie. But will the Imus affair make firing Rosie more possible? No. Making racist remarks is offensive enough for banning, but unfortunately no one considers physically and logically impossible screeds to be on the same level of offense. So while they both take crowns for ignorance, I don't see anyone being as offended at Rosie as they are at Imus. Ignorance, even deliberate ignorance of truth, is somehow not seen as being as offensive, only as being deluded. And America has a soft spot for the cranks in society.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 13, 2007 07:51 AM (xHyDY)
12
Ralph said all that needed to be said on this subject.
I would, however, like to add the following comment just 'cause:
Fuck you, Jessie and fuck you, Al.
Posted by: blu at April 13, 2007 07:53 AM (pXoDI)
13
I honestly don't give a fuck about Imus. If he'd called the University of North Dakota women's basketball team "blonde-headed hoes," he'd still have a problem -- or he should, at any rate. Unless they're actual, working prostitutes, you shouldn't call women "hoes." It's not funny. Yeah, rappers do it all the time; so what? They're scumbags. Imus is a dumbass and the author of his own misfortune. That Al and Jesse are worthy of tarring and feathering does not get Imus off the hook.
Worst of all, he's not even entertaining.
Fuck him.
Posted by: Matt at April 13, 2007 09:27 AM (10G2T)
14
"Worst of all, he's not even entertaining."
True
Posted by: blu at April 13, 2007 10:09 AM (pXoDI)
15
Hey, we can make jokes and little cute remarks all day, but the truth of the matter is this, sure, what Imus said was insensitive, and in this day and age he should have known a white, male, heterosexual can't say those things, at least not publicly. But what Rosie says every single day doesn't border on sedition, it is. She abuses her status as a celebrity. God knows Americans will believe anything that comes out of a person's mouth if they're famous. She is vindictive and mean. She doesn't make bad attempts at humor, like Imus did, she is purely hateful and mean spirited, and she is influencing the way a lot of uneducated, uninformed people think and feel. Rosie is a lot of things, mostly unmentionable. But I liked her until recently. She presents herself to be a loveable, nice person who cares about others. What she cares about is spewing hate speech, and garnering headlines. Shame on you Rosie.
Posted by: Chef at April 13, 2007 12:16 PM (JMWr9)
16
What I love about the whole Imus episode is the willingness of those folks that he befriended and help promote their careers have piled on first; David "Howdy Doody" Gregory and Harold Ford, Jr. to name a couple of real pricks.
Here's what Imus should be learning: "A Liberal is a Conservative who just got indicted, but a Conservative is a Liberal who just got mugged."
Imus just got mugged; and by his buddies Gregory and Ford, Jr., et al.
Can't wait for his new satellite show to start, 'cause his liberal kiss ass stuff pushed by his child bride ought to be over by now.
Posted by: shelly at April 13, 2007 04:27 PM (JQe3J)
17
Watching the Left's response to Imus and to the Duke case should be enlightening to people who are actually willing to think rather than bow down at the alter of political correctness. Don't hold your breath, however. Just look at the MSM's handling of both. The last few days has gone a long way in reaffirming my core politcal philosophy. The Left always manages to show us that they are a threat to freedom and liberty. Thank God for folks like Annika who do their little bit to fight these freedom-hating, race-baiting, PC kooks.
Posted by: blu at April 14, 2007 12:23 AM (pXoDI)
18
You're right Shelly. He laid down with dogs, and now has some bad itches.
Posted by: Casca at April 14, 2007 06:55 AM (Y7t14)
19
Imus' long time guru and career sponsor is Mel Karmizan, who is presiding over the merger between XM Radio and Sirius, and will be the CEO of the new combined satellite stations.
The writing is on the wall; all that remains is to find out when the Imus show will start, what hours it will broadcast, and how much he'll get paid.
Howard Stern (with no "K.") got over $100 Million, I think Imus will get a whole lot less than that.
I'm predicting he'll come back and take on all the politically correct, but chickenshit liberals that turned on him when he was down.
Posted by: shelly at April 15, 2007 04:21 AM (h/YdH)
20
Saying offensive things on the air, is that really a profession? If it is, what's wrong with it being a precarious one?
Imus is not the only out-of-control utterator around these days, but he is the one who kinda volunteered to serve as the canary in the coal mine. It's about time! Whether his punishment is proportional or not, this episode will put a bit of verbal humility in those who seem incapable of it without external, shall we say, guidance?
One does not need to be offensive in order to express things of thought-provoking value.
And what if Imus was not having fun with his "work" anymore, and did what he needed to do in order to force someone else to kick him out of his job instead of just quitting, like a man?
Sometimes I wish microphones were exquisitely delicate devices, that they would simply cease to operate when one tries to use them for the broadcasting offensive comments. Before this kind of technology comes along, what in the world is wrong with self restraint?
Posted by: Radical Redneck at April 15, 2007 08:49 PM (fCsqb)
22
Only a good Catholic girl like Annie would know about Torquemada and the obligatory auto de fe.
She is going to be one tough lawyer. Can you imagine the briefs? (No, Kevin, you little weirdo, not those kind)
The Imus story isn't dying; wanna bet he's in talks with Mel Karmizan right now? I'm guessing the announcment comes in April and he starts in May or June. Question is, will any cable company pick up the simulcast? They should, it was a big moneymaker for MSNBC, about 20 extra large a year.
Posted by: shelly at April 16, 2007 03:35 AM (2nDll)
23
For some reason, Imus in the Morning on MSNBC kept me awake when my youngest child was a baby and would wake up for his 4:00 a.m. feeding in 1997. Some years later, after years of dealing with this son's autism, I was glad to see that Don Imus gave air time to David Kirby, a journalist who has helped autism parents raise awareness that mercury was being injected into babies along with their immunizations, as well as to other autism topics.
Posted by: Joules at April 16, 2007 07:13 PM (u4CYb)
Bill Whittle's Newest
If you're like me, who waits impatiently for each great essay by Bill Whittle to come out, wait no more. The newest one is up! In it, Bill hits upon the motivation I've always suspected was the driving force behind the popularity of conspiracy theories: self-esteem. Or rather, the lack of it.
[M]ost normal people do not look at life from within a pit of failure and despair. Our lives are measured by small successes -- like raising children, serving in the military, doing volunteer work at your church – or just doing the right thing in a thousand small but important ways, like returning money if someone makes you too much change.
These are simply the small, ordinary milestones of a life of value. They give you a sense of identity.
But if I didn’t have that sense of identity rooted in my own small achievements, I wonder how likely it would have been for me to grab onto that sense of sudden empowerment, of being an initiate in some arcane club of hidden wisdom. I wonder what might have happened to me if being the Holder of Secret Knowledge had been my only source of self-esteem…the one redeeming landmark in a life of isolation and failure. Indeed, I wonder what power such a worldview would have over me if I could believe that behind the scenes lurked vast and unknowable dark forces – forces that could topple a president and perhaps even explain why a person of my deep, vast and bountiful talents was not doing a whole lot better in life?
When I uploaded my footage of the Truther at Ground Zero on YouTube, I intentionally checked the "no comments" box. For some reason, YouTube still submits comments for my approval and sure enough some idiot upbraided me for not drinking his particular flavor of kool-aid. I don't remember his exact words, but it was something like, "stop watching American Idol and do some research." I had to laugh at the irony of that.
To paraphrase Penn Jillette of Penn & Teller, "and where did you do your hard hitting data research... in your ass?"
1
Oh, I don't know... what couldn'you learn by listening to Simon? He seems to have a pretty keen insight into reality.
Posted by: Casca at April 11, 2007 09:01 PM (2gORp)
2...a friggin Truther, defiling the scene with his craziness.
You could shut up almost all of these loopy 'Truthers', meaning put an end to all of their "craziness", if you'd explain why WTC-7, which was not hit by an airplane loaded with fuel, not burning furiously, and had what appeared to be only not-exactly-fatal-looking superficial structural damage on just the south face (caused by falling north tower debris), later globally collapsed -- WHOOSH! -- right into its own footprint, in what looks exactly like a controlled demolition/implosion. None of the official reports do this; here is your big chance.
And when you're done with that, explain the HUGE spike in short side options trading on several adversely affected companies in the immediate days before 9-11. If all of that was just a coincidence, then it was what they call a helluva coincidence, and it would be interesting to see an intelligent estimate of the odds on that -- to quantify the 'helluva' part.
Disclaimer: I don't claim to know the answer in either case. But I would like to. And I think it is the responsibility of the investigating body, meaning the Bush administration, to provide them. So I don't have to accept things on faith. Which I'm not very good at.
Posted by: eh at April 11, 2007 09:59 PM (M2Hj1)
3
I guess you're right, "eh". Bush obviously is behind this grand conspiracy to take us to war. Now take your pills, and lay down for a while.
Posted by: Casca at April 11, 2007 10:51 PM (2gORp)
4
Hey, wait a minute there.
I want to believe all the canards, because, if they are true, then George W. Bush, who is clearly responsible for planning and executing this fraudulent attack on America (and is profiting from it) is clearly a genius!!
Debunk that; then explain why there is no Santa Claus or Good Fairy.
Posted by: shelly at April 12, 2007 04:06 AM (JQe3J)
5
ElMondoHummus:
The WTC 7 stuff has been answered months ago.
Sorry, but this is false. Or better said, you have to take a LOT on faith to totally buy the superficial official explanations, which are basically a lot of hand-waving.
I said there was superficial damage on the south face of WTC-7. I also said it was not significant in relation to the structural integrity of the entire building. Both of these statements are true; certainly no official report proves otherwise. Question: Why didn't WTC-7 kip at the point of damage, i.e. like a hinge, and collapse in that direction, meaning to the south? Think of what happens when a tree is chopped down -- if will fall in the direction of the wound unless made to do otherwise. Yet WTC-7 did not do this; instead it collapsed globally straight down -- WHOOSH! -- right into its own footprint. A truly remarkable failure in a modern highrise building barely 10 years old. A (seemingly synchronized) failure that exactly mimics controlled demolition. Just another coincidence of the 'helluva' variety? Perhaps. But when the 'helluva' coincidences start piling up (e.g., including the complete failure of the air defense system), skeptics -- among them nutcases, to be sure -- start speaking up.
To Casca:
I was careful not to say anything about what the explanation(s) might be, or who might be "behind" it, meaning in the sense of some sort of 'conspiracy'. But as usual this is not enough for someone like you, someone who insists on constructing straw men -- all the easier to blow down, I guess.
Posted by: eh at April 12, 2007 06:45 AM (1AfUz)
6
Another strawfuck sock, like will. eh, who cares.
Posted by: Casca at April 12, 2007 06:53 AM (FzhYM)
7
It's no use debating a truther. Eh says he's not good at accepting things on faith, yet just the opposite is true. It's not about truth at all, it's about a need to feel smarter than the rest of us. "ha ha I know something you don't." or "ha ha you all are the dupes and I'm the only one who questions the truthiness of things." Like I said, its motivated by a weird need for self-esteem, and thus cannot respond to logical reasoning.
Ever notice that truthers always avoid stating their theory of why? You can see this demonstrated without exception whenever they call Michael Medved's show. When asked, they always say something like "I don't claim to know the answer." and "I think it is the responsibility of the investigating body, meaning the Bush administration, to provide them."
The reason they do this is to avoid self contradiction. It is most important for them to maintain their self-created superiority over the rest of us dupes by claiming that they are the only ones who aren't merely accepting what is told to them. Yet if they claimed to know all the answers that would be a self contradiction because they would then be admitting that they accept things on faith too, only from a different, kookier source. Thus, their only option is to say I don't know, all I want is an investigation.
So let me get this straight. 9/11 was an inside job, but all they want is for the guys who impliedly did it to investigate themselves? That makes perfect sense. About as much sense as a government that is so evil, secretive and skilled at manufacturing evidence (though it had only been in office for 8 months) successfully pulling off the greatest swindle in all of history, in order to start the Iraq War, yet that same government was unable or unwilling to slip a few WMDs into Iraq, just to seal the deal! About as much sense as believing the conspirators would not be satisfied with the destruction of the twin towers and just had to, HAD TO have WTC7 too. Because everybody knows the flattening of the twin towers alone would not have been enough of a pretext for whatever they were plotting. Americans would have said "hey they only blew up buildings 1 & 2, we can't invade Iraq over that. Now if they'd blown up bldg 7, THAT would be a different story!"
But like I said, its a self esteem problem, so common sense and logical reasoning will never have an effect on these kooks. They only answer questions with questions because TO question is their goal. Its what makes them feel good.
Posted by: annika at April 12, 2007 07:46 AM (WfR6S)
Posted by: reagan80 at April 12, 2007 07:53 AM (fO04l)
9
Eh,
As the resident contrarian, a word Kashe confuses with sock, around here I have, along with Mr. Mondo, written about the explanation for the collapse a week ago. Diesel fuel, fella, 2 or 3 5000 gal tanks stored on the 7-9th floors. I know this since I had a copy of the plans for the "Emerengcy Whatever" office that Rudy built there not that anybody denies the tanks were there. No doubt about it, the building was damaged but would not have fallen were it not for the added fuel.
But, can anybody tell me where the wings went on the plane that hit the Pentagon? And where is a simple photo of the burning hulk of the plane or the engines? They don't burn and would be lying there like big charred sauerbraten? I have a hard time matching the damage on the building with the framework and dissapearance of the plane.
Posted by: Strawman at April 12, 2007 07:53 AM (9ySL4)
10
If you think the "official explanation" is a lot of hand waving, then you cannot even justify your own explanation, which contains far more hand waving than anything said by the government. And yes, this was answered months ago; you're just not paying attention to the answers.
"Why didn't WTC-7 kip at the point of damage...
For the same reasons WTC 1 and 2 didn't. As Blanchard said, they followed the path of least resistance:
"A tall office building cannot be made to tip over like a tree. Reinforced concrete smokestacks and industrial towers can, due to their small footprint and inherently monolithic properties. However, because typical human-inhabited buildings (and their supporting elements) are spread over a larger area and are not nearly as rigid, the laws of gravity case them to begin collapsing downward upon being weakened or tipped off center to a certain point. Blasters are well aware of this and often rely on this principle in designing upper-floor charge patterns to maximize breakage and in predicitng debris drop zones"
On top of that, you're still wrong about "collapsing on it's own footprint". 30 West Broadway and the Verizon building were damaged by WTC 7. That alone proves you wrong. You guys just transferred the fantasy about WTC 1 and 2 falling "on it's own footprint" and transferred them to WTC 7, thinking that it's lack of treatment by NIST will allow your fantasies free play. It's wrong for WTC 7 for the same reason it's wrong for 1 and 2: Because it's wrong to think about a skyscraper as a homogenous, single structure. And you guys refuse to acknowledge that!
And no, WTC 7 does not "exactly mimic" controlled demolition. Again, you parrot conspiracy fantasy without thinking. You do not know anything about CD. There has been exactly one - one - controlled demo expert (Danny Jowenko; you guys keep trying to use him as an "expert" for your side) who even allowed for the possibility of CD being used, and what comprised the entirety of his research? A single viewing of one video tape.
And he wasn't told about the fires within.
Save for him, there are no - no - demolitions experts who believe CD was used. None. Zero. And even in Jowenko's case, he's refused further contact or comment. Some expert testimony, huh? He refuses to have anything else to do with you guys.
It does not "exactly mimic" controlled demolition. The collapse started at the top and was not symmetric. To pretend that there was light damage and that the fires had no effect is to ignore all the testimony from the firefighters on scene. One example:
http://www.motorsportsartist.com/911truthiness/?p=73
Transcripts of testimony here, in an ongoing project to centralize interviews and other pieces of testimony regarding 9/11 here:
http://jay-911.blogspot.com/index.html
Look through that and try to tell me that the firefighters thought the damage was light enough to disallow the possibility of collapse. They knew, because they saw all the damage, and the extent of the fires. You've seen pages on the internet. Who's to be believed?
And please: Coincidence of the "helluva" variety? You speak as though those "coincidences", mistakes (yes, there have been mistakes in the NIST and FEMA reports), and to you guys odd phenomena build up to a cohesive narrative. They do not. You cannot construct an internally consistent story from the canards the conspiracy fantasies purport. To reflect reality, a narrative must add up and explain observed phenomena, and conspiracy fantasy does not. Not to mention the fact that all of them depend on the ludicrous Deus ex Machina of government planted explosives, which no one can explain how they got emplanted. And you call the real story "hand waving"! Try again.
On top of that: Your pose about "not (saying) anything about what the explanation(s) might be, or who might be "behind" it". BullSHIT. There's only one target for your criticism, and you leave room for only one implication. So don't lie. Casca's bullshit detector's far better than mine, and mine when off over a year ago when I first saw the so-called truth movement's lies. You guys always say you're just asking questions everywhere you try to pitch your fantasies, you guys always you just want to find out "who's behind it", and your lies are as transparent as glass. If I said "Do you still beat your wife", am I "just asking questions"? You're so transparent, it's ridiculous.
Like I said, Anni, same old stuff, over and over and over from these guys. They stick to scripts better than parrots and answering machines. Which is their failure; they cannot process the contradictions rife in their fantasies. Yet they try to pose as honest researchers, when honest research shows the errors and failures of logic rife in their fantasies. It's ridiculous.
Come up with something new, EH. No one's had to do anything but link answers already given in the past to debunk you guys. You're not even arguing anything new; everything you've brought up has been answered in the past. You're not even trying. Come up with something new or go away. When all someone has to do is see Debunking 911, 911 Myths, JREF, BAUT Forum, or Screw Loose Change for an old response to answer you guys, it's pretty much proof you're not even trying, let alone thinking. Come up with something new.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 12, 2007 08:16 AM (J+r3D)
11
Annika,
I don't put much stock in the pyso-bable of this guy Whittle and his self esteem base argument for conspiracy theorists.
I have a simple, more sociological argument.
Since the assignation of JFK the idea that the government or some government protected nefarious cable, could be operating in this country has gained credibility. The explanations offered to support the single shooter theory of the crime are so unbelievable that an entire generation had its faith in our government eroded. And like a virus the dis-belief has spread. A certain segment of the country (I think it is pointless to try and paint them with Whittle's esteem driven drivel) will always be skeptical, will always string together anomalies, coincidences, and the inept, defensive words of government media managers to construct a different vision of an event. Ultimately I think less harm is done by the people who go too far with conspiracy theories than by the people who blindly believe the bullshit.
Skepticism is a healthy quality in a society; just ask Mr. Jillette and Mr. Teller. Also, the site www.csicop.org is a good place to find info on "theories" and hoaxes.
Posted by: Strawman at April 12, 2007 08:22 AM (9ySL4)
12
Oh, Straw, come on!!
http://911myths.com/html/757_wreckage.html
Fine. No wings. You got me there. Only engines, wheel rims, landging gear parts, a door...
... and bodies:
"Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"
Sorry. I can't explain the wings. All I can say is that there's wreckage from a plane traced back to the Flight 77 757.
----
Does EH want to try to peddle the claims that Pop Mech's been debunked? Go ahead. Everyone else: Go read some of these debunkings. Jim Hoffman's in particular is particularly laughable; I haven't seen anyone concede so much of an opponents stance and still try to claim it's wrong. Go read those "debunkings" for yourself. Tell me if any actually say "Here's why PM is wrong (insert argument)", rather than "that's a lie" (no following support), or "this can also be true (at best, plausible alternate possibility; at worst, tortured logic)".
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 12, 2007 08:30 AM (J+r3D)
13
airliner wings are basically thin fuel tanks. i would be more suspicious if the hole in the pentagon did show the outline of wings.
Posted by: annika at April 12, 2007 10:06 AM (zAOEU)
14
Annika,
Thin and flimsy (not too flimsy ofcourse) is the name of planes from top to bottom. And I know much about them. (father was the master sgt in charge of a B-17 bomb group in '44 and son an aeronautical engineer) But I would expect to see SOME small effect on the limestone on either side of the major hole, caused by the wings. The hole is 50-70 feet narrower than the tip to tip wing span and they HAD to hit the facade but there is, from the photo's I've see, no associated damage not a broken window nor carbon staining from the fire (they were full of fuel). I do not claim any conspiracy I just don't see the evidence of a 757. It is strange. I say no more.
Posted by: Strawman at April 12, 2007 03:22 PM (9ySL4)
15Eh says he's not good at accepting things on faith, yet just the opposite is true.
Huh?
Look, I'll make it as simple as I possibly can for you: I have not accepted anything. I make a quite simple statement: the government, despite the resources available to it, including technical resources, has so far failed to give a credible, convincing explanation of why WTC-7 suffered a catastrophic global collapse, a collapse that looks identical to what one would expect if it was toppled via controlled demolition, something that normally takes weeks of expert planning and precise execution.
Take a look at a video of it.
It's not about truth at all, it's about a need to feel smarter than the rest of us.
I suppose this is a convenient ad hominem for you; how am I supposed to prove I have no need to "feel smarter" than anyone? Or that my self-esteem is above a certain threshold.
Posted by: eh at April 13, 2007 12:29 AM (xp3kO)
16
And regarding the integrity of this administration: Where are those Iraqi WMDs, anyway?
Posted by: eh at April 13, 2007 12:40 AM (xp3kO)
17"the government, despite the resources available to it, including technical resources, has so far failed to give a credible, convincing explanation of why WTC-7 suffered a catastrophic global collapse, a collapse that looks identical to what one would expect if it was toppled via controlled demolition, something that normally takes weeks of expert planning and precise execution."
You just contributed to debunking yourself. How did they do it if it takes weeks of expert planning and precise execution? They didn't have that timeframe after the planes hit Towers 1 and 2.
And how exactly does it look like "controlled demolition"? The Penthouse fell first, remember? CD starts at the bottom. And a majority of the debris fell to the southeast, with a significant minority falling to the northeast and west to damage 30 West Broadway and the Verizon building respectively. That's controlled demolition? An asymmetric collapse?
The building fell just like it was supposed to, given the damage and knowledge of where the fires were at.
And why are you making it sound like the investigation is finished by complaining that they haven't "...a credible, convincing explanation of why WTC-7 suffered a catastrophic global collapse" yadda, yadda?
"After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers. With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed. Considerable progress has been made since that time, including the review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7, the development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses, and the selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses."
(Source: NIST FAQ on WTC investigation... sorry, had to TinyURL it, the mu.nu filter rejected the post for wtc-dot-nist-dot-gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm)
So in other words, they're not finished yet.
Or is the emphasis in your criticism on "credible" and convincing? Which parts are not credible? For now, I'll just stick with the *hypothesis* in the FAQ (there's too much in the drafts to tackle here). What's not credible about these working hypothesis?
An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;
Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and
Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors) resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.
Granted, these are not conclusions yet; as I said, the study isn't finished. NIST wants to release their findings by early this year (and it's getting towards mid-this-year, so they'd either better hurry or announce they're going to miss the deadline). But... your gripe was about the conclusions (however temporary and subject to change they are) that have been released to date ("...the government... has so far failed to give a credible, convincing explanation of why WTC-7 suffered a catastrophic global collapse"). So let's deal with some summary conclusions released to date. What's wrong with the 3 broad strokes released in the NIST FAQ? What's not "credible" or "convincing" about them?
"Look, I'll make it as simple as I possibly can for you: I have not accepted anything."
Bull. You keep parroting conspiracy fantasy. You do not look up facts to dispute in the actual NIST or FEMA reports, and you don't even try to tackle what was said in non-governental publications, like Zdenek Bazant's paper in Journal of Engineering Mechanics"Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? - Simple Analysis". Admittedly that's on towers 1 and 2, but I thought you hadn't accepted anything yet. Or, do you accept that the findings on 1 and 2 are correct? Either way, you don't actually say what in their current and ongoing findings you don't find "credible" or "convincing"; as if you don't care what the details are, you only seek to criticise the ones making the report. Shoddy. What exactly do you disagree with? Put forth.
You know, for not having accepted anything, you sure do manage to hew the line of "questions" that other conspiracy fantasists keep purporting ("looks exactly like controlled demolition/implosion", "not hit by an airplane loaded with fuel", "(fires) not burning furiously", "only not-exactly-fatal-looking superficial structural damage", "explain the HUGE spike in short side options trading"...). You've yet to raise a point that isn't part of their mythology. You haven't brought up molten steel, pyroclastic flow, or Silverstien's "Pull It" comment yet, so I'll give you credit for not gushing those old canards, but have you truly come up with any independant thinking? I don't see it.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 13, 2007 06:25 AM (xHyDY)
18
Oh.. regarding the WMD's: You're correct. They're not there. How does that put explosives in the Twin Towers or WTC 7 without "weeks of expert planning and precise execution"?
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 13, 2007 06:26 AM (xHyDY)
19
"And regarding the integrity of this administration: Where are those Iraqi WMDs, anyway?"
Governmental incompetence does not a sinister conspiracy make.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 13, 2007 08:46 AM (fO04l)
20
Raygun,
Still clinging to the "we're just stupid" myth?
Posted by: Strawman at April 13, 2007 12:54 PM (9ySL4)
21
Aw, how cute. Eh's little theories about WTC 7 are falling apart under scrutiny so he flings out something about pre-war intelligence on Iraq's WMD program.
...and when people expend enough effort dealing with that, he'll probably find something else or go back to WTC 7 and pretend the previous facts presented that threaten his theories never existed.
ElMondoHummus: You have the pattern of behavior pretty well described. Sad thing is, it's all a matter of endurance for these folks. They'll keep spewing, dodging, weaving, firing chaff and flares and return until people get tired of their antics. Then they claim victory.
Posted by: Patrick Chester at April 13, 2007 02:18 PM (MKaa5)
22
Well, Patrick Chester, their pattern of behavior is so unvarying. It's not too hard to discern it.
You know: The funny thing is the inconsistency of the fantasy. Eh here keeps on saying "looks exactly like a controlled demolition" or "exactly mimics"... but when Popular Mechanics (among others) pointed out the inconsistencies apparent when you compare what you expect to see out of CD with what actually happened to the WTC Complex, the argument suddenly becomes "Oh, that wasn't standard CD". In other words, it looks exactly like CD. Unless it's convenient for the argument to say it doesn't.
I think Jim Hoffman was one of the purveyors of "it's not standard demolition". I have to double-check that.
Anyway... it's completely predictable behavior. Eh isn't even on the level of the JREF antagonists. Heck... he's not even on the same level as the Screw Loose Change trolls knowledge-wise. Although, I have to admit, I do give him many points for civility; he's trying to argue rather than harangue, and unlike some of the SLC antagonists, or worse yet, the opposition at 9/11 Conspiracy Smasher, he's not stooped to reckless ad hominem. So regardless of how empty the arguments he makes are, I willingly give credit where it's due, and he deserves credit for not flinging excrement like too many other fantasists stoop to. No, the WMD post wasn't s*** slinging, not compared to the low idiocies posted elsewhere. It was empty, dumb, and irrelevent, but it wasn't poo-shooting.
So there is that.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 16, 2007 06:58 AM (xHyDY)
23
eh: The government has given such an explanation. You just don't like it.
"Watch a video and it'll look just like a controlled demolition" is not convincing if people look at it and say "well, no, it actually doesn't". (Cf. ElMondo's immediately preceding post.)
(The other problem being, why would they want to blow up WTC-7? What would an evil government conspiracy gain by collapsing an empty WTC-7 building? What's the motive?
Hell, if they were evilly conspiring to kill Americans to gin up support for a war, wouldn't they have flown the planes into and then blown up the WTC towers when they were full of people? To gin up even more anger and support?
Even accepting the conspiracy premises, this doesn't make any sense.)
Posted by: Sigivald at April 16, 2007 04:51 PM (4JnZM)
My First And Only Duke Lacrosse Related Post
Now that the Duke Lacrosse thing is over, I think it's an appropriate time to review what did not happen in Durham. So here's Mary Katharine Ham to remind us, in a video she did way back in December.
1
Everything you need to know about the Left was sadly and pathetically on display during this episode.
I can't even imagine what these young men have gone through. I hope and pray that the DA and the "victim" have to give up every last cent they have in restitution. Moreover, the school and city owe these boys big. Let's hope the lawsuits are huge and the dollars floweth.
Posted by: jcrue at April 11, 2007 05:35 PM (wqbLX)
3
That was simply, succinctly, and presciently, brilliant!
Posted by: Aviator Otto at April 11, 2007 10:10 PM (czVLs)
4
TSG/Drudge have her pic, and previous arrest report posted. LOL, what a loon. Even funnier, they're not going to indict her because she's nucking futz. Chicks get away with everything.
Posted by: Casca at April 11, 2007 10:57 PM (2gORp)
Posted by: Mark at April 12, 2007 12:14 AM (4T9a8)
6
Nice cool post in the face of all the storm and posturing. I suppose it's impolite to wonder if 'first and last post' suggests a certain reluctance to get too much on the bandwagon of 'false accusations.'
Posted by: Michael at April 12, 2007 12:53 PM (8ezBr)
7
No, I'm totally on board the false accusations bandwagon. I just never posted before because it was an ongoing investigation, and truthfully I wasn't all that interested. I don't plan to post again about it because it's pretty much over, and besides, I won't be here in 38 days.
Posted by: annika at April 12, 2007 07:44 PM (WfR6S)
Posted by: Mark at April 13, 2007 11:50 AM (2MrBP)
9
I am retiring from full time blogging, to become a lawyer.
Posted by: annika at April 13, 2007 12:00 PM (WfR6S)
10
Moving from one low calling to another. You'll probably be on the ballot in '08.
Posted by: Casca at April 14, 2007 07:00 AM (Y7t14)
11
Heh, thanks for the answer! That's the convent where you may not have your own blog though, different profession. I link to 2 lawyer blogs Volokh conspiracy and the Becker Posner Blog.
Posted by: michael at April 14, 2007 06:34 PM (bCj+s)
Posted by: Mark at April 16, 2007 02:00 PM (2MrBP)
13
At least Annika has given us a couple months notice before shutting down the place. My favorite Mil-blogger, Odysseus, just went "cold turkey" on blogging without telling us why. I don't know if he's back in Iraq, just spending time with his kid, or demoralized.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 16, 2007 07:40 PM (fO04l)
14
Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant! Love your blog by the way. You should check ours out... lots of the same views and we're all vets.
Posted by: TheSniper at April 17, 2007 09:36 PM (I21EG)
Latest LA Times/Bloomberg Poll
The latest LA Times/Bloomberg poll on the Iraq War contains a real surprise, which might explain why nobody is reporting it. The poll is dated April 5th through April 9th. The key question is this:
Generally speaking, do you think setting a timetable for withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq hurts or helps U.S. troops serving in Iraq right now, or doesn't it affect the troops one way or the other?
And the responses, no doubt highly disappointing to the LA Times and other anti-American news organizations, were as follows (emphasis mine):
Hurts: 50%
Helps: 27%
No Effect: 15%
Unsure: 8%
The really crazy thing about the poll is that the next question asks whether the President should sign a funding authorization that includes a timetable for withdrawal, or veto it. The poll found 48% of respondents favoring such a timetable! Even though 50% believe it would harm the troops! Not only that, 45% believe Congress should "refuse to pass any funding bill until Bush agrees to accept conditions for withdrawal." Again, even though it harms the troops.
So much for Americans supporting the troops, if you believe the poll.
Predictably, the only news story I found on Google that even mentions the poll is selective in its coverage — i.e. they're incredibly biased. Here's the link. As of this writing, E&P completely failed to mention the first question I highlighted above, instead focusing on the second question. That's not just biased reporting, it's fucking propaganda.
1
If the link includes propaganda about sexual intercourse, then I can't read it from work. (Or maybe propaganda is OK, just the facts can't be read?)
I don't think the proper question is whether or not something helps the troops - one can easily argue that the best way to "help" the troops is to deploy them in Iowa where people won't shoot at them (I don't think). The proper question is what action will help the Iraqis. But, since Americans are often inwardly-focused, this question is of little consequence to most people. (Liberal Democrats as the new isolationists?)
The interesting part of the poll question is the 27% who believed that a timetable would help the troops. Did the respondents believe that the timetable would help the troops in the long-term only, or did they also see some short-term benefit? (If so, I can't imagine what it would be.)
Posted by: Ontario Emperor at April 11, 2007 01:03 PM (B0VZe)
2
Annika,
Another deeply flawed set of question given to the deeply flawed American voter whose intelligence is only somewhat more compromised than their morals or ability to think logically.
Of course, "What's good for the troops" is a crap phrase, completely ambiguous. You think keeping their morale high, belief in the mission intact and their kit well equiped is what they need and I think sleeping at home with their wife and taking care of their kids is what they need.
Posted by: Strawman at April 11, 2007 01:25 PM (9ySL4)
3
"The proper question is what action will help the Iraqis. But, since Americans are often inwardly-focused, this question is of little consequence to most people."
Ah, the Emperor just reminded me of something. Right Wing Donn posted my favorite comment of the week:
[An even MORE interesting essay would be:“How the Iraqis Lost Iraq.”And, might I add, the Iraqis can singularly give themselves credit for turning the Post 9/11 generations in America into people who certainly believe or feel or both that it is better to have a brutal dictator in power, with rape rooms, mass beatings and mass murder--as long as he keeps the peace and keeps the population from doing to each other what the Iraqis are determined to do.Muqtada al Sadr--THIS is YOUR legacy.I don’t think anyone in America needs worry that the U.S. will do anything like this any time soon. Which means that the Brits and French had better learn to stand on their own. Because I think we will soon hear:NO AMERICAN BLOOD FOR EUROFREEDOM!!!!]
...................................................
"(Liberal Democrats as the new isolationists?)"
Not quite.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 11, 2007 06:24 PM (fO04l)
4...whose intelligence is only somewhat more compromised than their morals or ability to think logically.
Except for you, right?
Posted by: Radical Redneck at April 12, 2007 04:17 AM (quenf)
6
Hey Red,
Have you checked the label on your terry cloth upholstered barcolounger? I'll bet it says "schmuck sienna".
Posted by: Strawman at April 12, 2007 07:32 AM (9ySL4)
7
That's wild. At first I thought it must be an antique piece of furniture. But its apparently something new. I knew Canadians were odd, but racist too?
Posted by: annika at April 12, 2007 07:53 AM (WfR6S)
8
Annika,
My guess is that it is a misspelling of "Niger Brown"
Posted by: Strawman at April 12, 2007 08:26 AM (9ySL4)
9
in that case, Straw, shouln't it be the color of "yellow" cake?
; )
Posted by: annika at April 12, 2007 08:31 AM (gPH4l)
10
It was assembled in China. I'll bet the overseer had the label-making Chinaman blindfolded with dental floss thus creating the error.
Of course the stoopid™ only multiplies: the dumb-assed bitch is bringing the 1 square inch tag to some PC Humanoid Rights Commission. :rollseyes:
Posted by: Radical Redneck at April 12, 2007 09:27 PM (QizG9)
11
Annika,
Right you are. Yellow cake with Niger Brown chocolate icing.
Posted by: Strawman at April 13, 2007 01:03 PM (9ySL4)
Thank Don Imus
I have a somewhat different take on the whole Imus debacle. I've always thought he was totally overrated and I never understood his appeal or influence. Happily, living in California, I don't have to listen to him.
However, I think the huge uproar surrounding Imus's recent unfunny racial jokes, his subsequent apologies, public bitchslapping and two week suspension have shown us just how far we've come as a society that is unwilling to tolerate such insensitivity.
It is right and just that Imus be brought low, a-hole that he is.
I also firmly believe that this controversy has brought us closer to that glorious day, which will occur soon and possibly within our lifetimes, when no one will ever be insulted ever again. By anyone. At any time. In any way.
Hallelujah!
Update: It's official. Wikipedia now refers to "Imus in the Morning" in the past tense.
1
Lol, you forgot to turn the sarcasm off.
I remember Imus from when I was a boy, and he was a drunk on the radio (AM) in Cleveland. He was hilarious to my preteen mind back in those days, but hell, we only had three channels on TV, so my fun meter pegged pretty easily. Then he went to NYC, turned to smack, got fired everywhere, cleaned up his act, and re-emerged with his grouchy old prick schtick. He's been saying worse things about everyone for years. Had he called them nappy headed dykes, he could fall back on the truth defense. My joy in this is that he's been whoring for the D's for a couple of years now, and for the next ten years, he'll be a public joke.
Posted by: Casca at April 10, 2007 06:52 PM (2gORp)
2
Nicely said Casca.
I'm fucking sick of this non-story. It was a stupid, un-funny comic routine. That's it. Nobody busted out the "N" word. Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton have both said worse things about Jews and whites and yet both have the fucking balls to act offended in hopes of raising some money for themselves and their parasites in the "civil rights" community. Fucking pricks. I despise both those frauds and their out-dated, pathetic "cause."
What's more disgusting than all the phony black outrage and white liberal guilt is the fact that black rappers/hip-hop artists say worse shit about their own people every fucking day on the raido and make millions selling it too little white, brown, yellow, and black boys. So, when young black males preach misogyny, and toss around the "N" word every other sentence, well, that's art. But when an old, insignifcant, white asshole says something only barely racist, then, of course, America is a cauldron of racism just waiting to boil over.
There are few things I care less about than the phony "racism" cries of black and white liberals.
As for Don, I couldn't give a shit. I don't think he should be fired, but I sure wouldn't mind if his market-value went down. One less dip-shit on the airwaves is good thing.
Posted by: blu at April 10, 2007 08:23 PM (Z0MKU)
3
Actually, I watch him almost every weekday.
I record it on TiVo and after an hour or so, scroll through and get rid of the crap and commercials.
Lately, it's been a lot more crap than funny. His ultraliberal child bride has turned him from M Republican into a pussy patsy for the likes of John Kerry, Cris Dodd and James Carville and Paul Begala. He always notes that he's a Republican but he never votes that way.
I like watching Lieberman, McCain and a few others, including Colonel Jack Jacpbs who got the Medal of Honor, but more and more he is unfunny and liberal.
Maybe now he'll become a little more conservative, since the definition of a conservative is "A liberal who just got mugged".
Imus just got mugged.
Posted by: shelly at April 10, 2007 08:53 PM (2nDll)
4
Annie,
My take is that he's an old dinosaur blowhard who doesnÂ’t understand the world, despite the visitations of many Presidential wannabees, doesnÂ’t revolve around him and his wife as they schlep their "green" products and tell us the great things he does on his ranch.
What pisses me off most is not his racist, feminist, stupid rants it's that recently with the Walter Reed scandal, he attacked the Army leadership, who no doubt both screwed up the job and the discussion, but called some "sons of bitches" bastards, and for court-martial.
I say, whoever is stupid enough to employ Imus, gets what they deserve.
Posted by: Otto at April 10, 2007 10:16 PM (czVLs)
5
Judging from the sheer volume of advertisements that I scroll through trying to find a little comedy on Imus without his wife's liberal buddies' commentary, I'd say that whoever employs him makes a lot of money in the process.
Sometimes he is pretty outrageous but I think he knows pretty well who and what he is. He is a parody of himself and he laughs at himself as much as others do.
I also think he is sincerely sorry for his comments, taken out of context, to be sure, but still sorry they have caused so much pain to the girls, mostly thanks to the bible thumping frauds, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, who are riding this wave for all it is worth.
And, by the way, so is Imus. His viewership is bound to increase exponentially as those who never heard of him tune in when the "suspension" is over.
Meanwhile, he takes a "vacation" and does the circuit advertising his show. Hell, dontcha just love showbiz??
Posted by: shelly at April 11, 2007 02:29 AM (2nDll)
6
I don't know Shelly. He has a face for radio. When I look at him, I think of my mother after a year of cancer. Is Fred still around, or did the new wife banish him?
I should have known that it was the young, large breasted wife. His course correction was about 180 degrees. As for the ranch, give me a fucking break. It's a fucking tax dodge. Nothing like a 501(c)3 if you have a way to hustle people for money. His fund raising for his fraud/ranch was embarrassing.
Posted by: Casca at April 11, 2007 07:18 AM (Y7t14)
7
Imus just got mugged... the question is how much will Al and Jesse bleed him. The sad twist to this story is Rutgers University getting in on the act.
I didn't see the whole press conference, but Rutgers is lucky no reporter got one of the players to deviate from the script by asking a question such as what rappers/songs the players have on their Ipods..
Jason Whitlock summed up the point nicely:
http://www.kansascity.com/182/story/66339.html
"With the comments of a talk-show host most of her players had never heard of before last week serving as her excuse, Vivian Stringer rambled on for 30 minutes about the amazing season her team had.
Somehow, weÂ’re supposed to believe that the comments of a man with virtually no connection to the sports world ruined RutgersÂ’ wonderful season. Had a broadcaster with credibility and a platform in the sports world uttered the words Imus did, I could understand a level of outrage.
But an hourlong press conference over a man who has already apologized, already been suspended and is already insignificant is just plain intellectually dishonest. This is opportunism. This is a distraction."
Oh, wonder if the Duke Lacrosse players will get an hour long press conference to talk about being "scarred for life" and whether they'll get an apology from some of the Duke faculty members..
Posted by: Col Steve at April 11, 2007 07:48 AM (WffUy)
8
"Oh, wonder if the Duke Lacrosse players will get an hour long press conference to talk about being "scarred for life" and whether they'll get an apology from some of the Duke faculty members..."
Exactly, Col! I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the professional, left-wing race-baiters to apologize. I gurantee many of them are either sadly disapointed that this whole episode was a lie made up a cheap whore or that they refuse to believe that the evil, white-males didn't actually rape the helpless, black female.
These people's entire political belief system is premised on non-white/non-Western victimhood and a belief in innate white/Western racism - facts be damned.
Posted by: blu at April 11, 2007 09:55 AM (Z0MKU)
9
I'd be interested in your take on Gingrich's admission that there is sufficient evidence for anthropogenic global warming;
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/04/11/gingrich_drops_skepticism_on_global_warming/
Posted by: will at April 11, 2007 10:18 AM (GzvlQ)
10
i'd have to take newt very seriosly, since he's a scientist and all. and of course he's not running for president.
Posted by: annika at April 11, 2007 10:29 AM (zdkjQ)
11
I'd be interested in Will's take on yet another famous and prestigious scientist saying that the global warming propogandists are full it and full of themselves. And, of course, another in the chorus of voices calling Al Gore's movie what it is: C-R-A-P.(Will Ad Hominem Alert: get ready for a personal attack on the particular MIT professor and an inability to deal with him intellectually.)
Pretty cold April, Will, don't ya think?
Newt's ass-kissing of yet another liberal is just one more nail in his presidential coffin. Seriously, why would any self-respecting person - let alone conservative - be in the same room with that pompous, arrogant weasel. Hey, Will, I'll bet you voted for ol' John, didn't ya. You guys have a lot in commmon. I'll let you figure out what those personality traits are.
Posted by: blu at April 11, 2007 11:17 AM (Z0MKU)
12
this Imus thing demonstrates the worst knee jerk - emphasis on "jerk" aspects of our society. I don't know Imus well, though I did see his apology. I was impressed that it was an actual apology - as opposed to the fake apologies employed by Bill Clinton, Dick Durbin, et al, when they never actually got around to apologizing for any wrongdoing. Imus gets points from me for his apology.
Jesse and Al are jokes. Imus is a fool to cater to them.
WTF IS THE RUTGERS BASKETBALL TEAM DOING AT A PRESS CONFERENCE?!? That is the biggest freakin joke I have ever seen. Child abuse. The parents of Rutgers players should sue the school for allowing their kids to be made into a public spectacles. I guarantee you - GUARANTEE - there's a way to sue the school, on behalf of any basketball player, under current Sexual Harrassment laws, and win. Guarantee.
Posted by: gcotharn at April 11, 2007 11:28 AM (clP4M)
13
Those girls are, effectively, employed by the university. They generate revenue for the university. If they don't show up, in their sweatsuits, at that vanity press conference for their coach; and if they don't show up, to sacrifice themselves on the altar of an NAACP/race hustler agenda; then they could reasonably expect they might lose playing time next season. They could reasonably expect harrassment in practice: extra running, extra disciplinary measures, extra criticism from their coach. Their scholarships are year to year. They could reasonably fear their scholarship might not be renewed. When that vanity + race hustler press conference was announced to the media, those girls were instantly thrust into a hostile work environment.
Posted by: gcotharn at April 11, 2007 11:41 AM (clP4M)
14
Those girls, and their parents, would never sue the school. College is too short, and too precious of an experience, to defile it in order to make a political point. However, this is the type of counter-terror lawsuits which conservatives should be filing, across the nation, to break the back of the EEOC, and or the current court rulings vis a vis sexual harrassment law. Leftist employers, and managers, are mindlessly running amok, and creating work conditions which ideally fit inside the definition of "hostile work environment." No one has thought to sue them for it, and service of a counter terror pushback at sexual harrassment law. Conservative attorneys should be soliciting such lawsuits. There is a gaping vulnerability there, waiting to be exploited.
Posted by: gcotharn at April 11, 2007 11:49 AM (clP4M)
15
Blu,
The take on this story from a fried.........
I'd like to see Don and Al shackled together like Sidney and Tony. They could call it Raison and Son. Or they could learn to cooperate and co-produce the Imus and Andy Show. Maybe they could get the Reverend Jackson to atone for his Hymietown remark by playing the role of George 'Whitefish' Stevens. Sharpton: "What dat disgustin' smell, Whitefish?" Whitefish: "Ah thinks dat's dog poo, Andy. It comin' from dat nasty plastic garbage bag. Saaaaaay! Dere's a nappy-headed ho in dat shitty bag! Why, it's Too-wanna Brawly!" Cut to commercial: Mississippi John Hurt for Maxwell House coffee. I'm just glad that Buddy Hackett and Jerry Lewis never lived to see this.
Posted by: Strawman at April 11, 2007 01:32 PM (9ySL4)
16Happily, living in California, I don't have to listen to him.
Actually, and also happily, no one has to listen to Imus, even those who don't live in California.
Posted by: eh at April 11, 2007 09:32 PM (M2Hj1)
17
blu, if you are referring to Richard Lindzen, I'd have to say that he's entitled to his opinion. I'm sure the $2500 per showing he gets from giving endless presentations to lobbyists, conservative organizations, and oil/coal/gas/automaker/utility groups has noinfluence on his POV.
If you are referring to the many other at MIT, you'll see that they overwhelmingly support the IPCC position (indeed, several participate in the IPCC process). So Lindzen is a part of a vocal, though tiny, minority of climate researchers.
Don't confuse a cool fraction of a month with long term climate trends; that's a futile attempt by the denialist spin doctors to delude the lay public. And April is far from over...
Posted by: will at April 12, 2007 08:41 AM (GzvlQ)
18
As I predicted, Will is incapable of making any intellectual argument against Lindzen's position:
"I'm sure the $2500 per showing he gets from giving endless presentations to lobbyists, conservative organizations, and oil/coal/gas/automaker/utility groups has noinfluence on his POV."
This is always Will's ploy regardless of the debate: Shout loudly about his position being correct and then personally attack any person with a contrary position. It's sad and pathetic really.
Will, you are a sophist. Anybody who understands how research money is given and who provides those funds, understands that each scientist and each benefactor has an agenda.
Go, push your propoganda on some 6th graders, who might actually buy it. (Sadly, your kind of junk science is already being systematically included in the propoganda of the public school system.)
Oh, this April, coldest on record in, what, 100 years...?
Posted by: blu at April 12, 2007 09:46 AM (pXoDI)
19
blu,
Lindzen merely states that he doesn't understand how the climate models can be used as prediction tools. He's one of a very tiny minority of scientists, most of whom have been backtracking their statements over the last several years as more data has become available and the models have been shown to be surprisingly accurate in identifying trends.
I have no doubt that you also hold highly conservative positions on evolution, flat earth, and similar topics, holding up one or two cranks as your champions. Even your hero Newt now says you are full of fertilizer, so the island position you are defending is eroding rapidly around your feet even as you speak. It's time to bail out, else you will spend inordinate amounts of time splashing about aimlessly.
Posted by: will at April 13, 2007 05:04 AM (GzvlQ)
20
Dear Annika,
Please, for the love of all that is good in this world, concede to Will's points.
As you may already know, he is the host to my symbiotic existence. If he is not happy, then his misery will inevitably trickle down to ME.
If you could find it in your heart to...oh fuck it. Here's the lowdown: see, unless if you kowtow to his views, my host can't get a stiffy. Ever. Again.
He's been forcing me, at gunpoint, to give him handj0bs, but it hasn't been working out so far. You should see how Will takes his frustrations out on me! He flogs me with the strap-on that he's been using on the missus! The horror!
So, don't be an ice queen. I only have about a month left before he decides to end it all for both of us. Give him what he wants for my sake, PLEASE!
Graciously waiting,
Swill
Posted by: Swill at April 13, 2007 09:43 AM (fO04l)
21
Those who can't debate the science on its merits use any number of other rhetorical tricks.
Posted by: will at April 16, 2007 06:05 AM (GzvlQ)
1
This entire episode just goes to show how the far, far, far left fringe controls the Dem party. Can you imagine if conservatives started giving PBS or CBS the finger? CBS and PBS are both more bias than FOX - as are CNN and NBC. (ABC, in my opinion, is less bias than the rest though still clearly a left-wing cheerleader.)
The Dems know that the kooks pay their bills. Hopefully, it won't take average Americans too long to see who really controls these people.
Posted by: blu at April 10, 2007 09:23 AM (Z0MKU)
2
Blu,
"The only thing wrong about bias is thinking that it does not exist. To believe that there can exist a neutral position is a bias toward fantasy."
Strawman
Some are left, some are right. Where is that unwaivering belief you have in the wisdom of the average American to suss out the reality and vote their conscience? You tell me all the time I underestimate intelligence the lumpen P. so I look to you to highlight their strengths.
"The truth is a moving set of metaphors"
"There are no facts, only interpretations."
"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist" Friedrich Nietzsche
Posted by: Strawman at April 10, 2007 10:09 AM (9ySL4)
3
I actually wouldn't have so much of a problem with the left-wing MSM if they would just admit their bias.
Instead, you get self-righteous left-wing assholes like David Gregory pretending that they are neutral. It's a joke.
Posted by: blu at April 10, 2007 10:16 AM (Z0MKU)
4
Most primary candidates are satisfied to lock themselves into a "me too" strategy - primarily because those who don't (e.g. John Anderson) don't win. So the Dems imposed their "boycott Fox" litmus test to prove their Democraticness.
I'm sure that if Mitt and Rudy decided that it was "Republican" to boycott the New York Times or Cosmopolitan whatever ("Nancy Reagan never appeared on the Cosmopolitan cover"), every single candidate would follow suit to prove their Republicanness.
Posted by: Ontario Emperor at April 10, 2007 10:18 AM (P8ktI)
5
That's an interesting take, OE. Have to see if something similar happens on the Rep side.
Posted by: blu at April 10, 2007 10:29 AM (Z0MKU)
6
It's much simpler than media bias. The D's own almost all of the media. For a LONG time they owned it all, that's how they stayed in power.
No conservative can play with the MSM without getting fastballs thrown at his head, while the umpire calls it a strike. The D's get one groved down the middle of the plate, and if they whiff, it's a ball. That's not bias. That's a crooked game. The D's can't compete in a straight game, and they know that, so they cheat. The MSM is just the umpire in their pocket.
Posted by: Casca at April 10, 2007 10:32 AM (Y7t14)
7
Funny... I would have thought the DEMS would be the ones to compare Fox to America's enemies :0)
Posted by: The Law Fairy at April 10, 2007 11:18 AM (XUsiG)
8
Fortunately for us (well, all but one or two of us) it is the power of the ideas that prevails, not the people or the biased commentary of the self-professed "neutrals" like the aformentioned Howdy Doody of NBC, the provacative Mr. Gregory.
I'm waiting for him to ask tough questions of Speaker/Alternate Secretary of State Cruella de Pelosi.
But, I'm not holding my breath.
Posted by: shelly at April 10, 2007 11:51 AM (JQe3J)
9
there's another big question: how come i can't get traffic like cap'n ed even though i post stuff exactly like this - only three days before he does!?
http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2007/04/
edwards-and-democrat-party-willing-to.html
Posted by: reliapundit at April 10, 2007 07:37 PM (xz4sV)
10
As Commodore Vanderbilt once remarked when someone asked him how much it costs to own and operate a yacht, "Them as has to ask, can't."
Posted by: shelly at April 11, 2007 02:33 AM (2nDll)
11
Maybe it's his open bar Tuesdays, and Free BJ Fridays?
Posted by: Casca at April 11, 2007 07:22 AM (Y7t14)
12
Captain Ed is big because he was one of the handful of bloggers who broke the Rathergate story.
Posted by: annika at April 11, 2007 11:28 AM (zAOEU)
Kiki On WWI
Here's Kiki Couric on today's anniversary of the American entry into World War I.
Did you catch that?
Listening between the lines, Kiki's message is this: If not for advances in modern medicine, over 413,000 Americans would have died fighting the Iraq war.
Am I reading too much into it? If it was anybody else, I might be, but this is the anti-American CBS News.
1
What she meant to say was "If it were not for the aliens and their mind control device, I would be a pushy soccor mom, getting into a pissing match with another hausfrau at the Peoria PTA."
Posted by: kyle N at April 06, 2007 07:10 PM (7k0iG)
2
The video is no longer available! Conspiracy!!!!
Posted by: Otto at April 06, 2007 08:27 PM (czVLs)
3
There are few members of the media that make me cringe with revulsion more than Ms. Katie Couric. She could be reading "Green Eggs and Ham" -- it wouldn't matter.
Posted by: Mark at April 06, 2007 10:31 PM (viPPu)
4
Jeez, she reads like the smart bitch in a high school English class. Since when was the "A" in fatalities long?
On the upside, I just got off the phone with Casca II. He called on the satphone from a wadi in the western desert. It was good to hear his voice. Technology is great!
Posted by: Casca at April 06, 2007 11:44 PM (2gORp)
5
If he's really your son, it would be Casca, Jr. Small distinction, but worth mentioning.
Please give him my thanks, and those of all of us, (except that fool who keeps butting in), for being there and defending us all, even the fool.
Posted by: shelly at April 07, 2007 05:39 AM (4hKsD)
6
I second Shelly's motion. I hope him and his comrades remain safe for the duration of their stay.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 07, 2007 07:49 AM (I0gpu)
7
Lol, well since he's about five inches taller than me, I've always suspected his mother's fidelity. The rub is that his mind works a lot like my own. In any case, since I'm not a legalistic sort, I'll continue to call him any damn thing I want.
It was an interesting conversation. We talked tactics a bit. I asked him about his ability to displace, so as not to become a fixed target, and to emphasize the need to be thinking about that, and he replied, "I've got very little else to think about, and all day to think about it." LOL
He's on a grand adventure, and he knows it. Any man worth his salt would trade places with him in a heartbeat. I'll pass on your good wishes.
Posted by: Casca at April 07, 2007 08:16 AM (2gORp)
8
Kasca,
Despite what you or Shelly may think I wish him a safe return. I may not agree that he is defending me or you from a real threat or that his commander in chief is competent but he is a soldier and doing his job takes courage and committment.
Posted by: strawman at April 07, 2007 12:27 PM (9ySL4)
Posted by: Mike C. at April 08, 2007 05:30 AM (2nDll)
11
Hey Red,
DOn't worry, after we get move in proper and all and the kid comes we'll get you a nice new leather collar and a life coach.
Posted by: strawman at April 08, 2007 09:57 AM (9ySL4)
12
Straw is especially bitter on Easter because the Jew came back. Good Friday is the ultimate liberal blueballing!
Posted by: Radical Redneck at April 08, 2007 01:42 PM (G0EXJ)
13we'll get you a nice new leather collar and a life coach.
What the fuck is a life coach? Is that some kind of PC government makework job to inculcate loathing of America, heteros and self? I'm surrounded by a zillion of those every day and it hasn't yet, nor will it ever work.
Speaking of weddings Straw, when is your Daddy #1 going to make an honest man out of Daddy #2?
Posted by: Radical Redneck at April 08, 2007 05:29 PM (cOyko)
14
Thank you to your son, Casca. My son-in-law just got back from 14 months in Iraq. We owe them and their families a huge debt.
Posted by: MarkD at April 09, 2007 05:42 AM (5vbH6)
Posted by: Casca at April 09, 2007 06:28 AM (Y7t14)
16
Red,
It is, if Hillary is elected, going to be a new cabinet level position; Secretary of Life, right down the hall from the office of the Secretary of Peace. They may need an ugly mutt to pace in the front yard so you may have a job opportunity with medical bene's
Posted by: strawman at April 09, 2007 06:35 AM (9ySL4)
17
Seconds and Amen's to everyone's hopes for your son's safety, Cas. BTW, is he a Marine, or is he army? Figured the overbearing
influence of his paterfamilias might predispose him to life as a leatherneck, but then again, maybe he's all about blazing his own path and needling his old man about it. 'Specially given that dig 'bout his mom ("Yeah, pop, but funny thing is, I'm the same height as the mailman...").
Hehe...
All kidding aside, kudos and blessings to him and his immediate leadership, who I'm certain are equal to the task of leading fine young soldiers and Marines.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 09, 2007 10:10 AM (xHyDY)
18They may need an ugly mutt to pace in the front yard
No thanks. Either of your wives (from the picture above) are more than qualified.
right down the hall from the office of the Secretary of Peace.
Got news for you genius - there already is a Secretary of Peace. It's called the Secretary of Defense, or the War Department.
Your desperate wet dream of a weak, surrendering and defeatist America will never happen.
Posted by: Radical Redneck at April 09, 2007 01:04 PM (fWJN4)
19
El,
We're coming up on the 25th anniversary of his mother deficating him upon a table in the delivery room at Camp Pendleton. Nine months earlier, the deed having been committed at Quantico, MCB. It truly was in his blood. I tried to wave him off, but we're from a line strong with the need to burn our own fingers.
Posted by: Casca at April 10, 2007 06:49 AM (Y7t14)
A Non-Issue For Me
I am in complete agreement with Jim Geraghty on the Pelosi head-scarf non-controversy.
I enjoy whacking around Nancy Pelosi as much as the next guy, but as far as I can tell, the photos of her in a headscarf are all of her while visiting a mosque. . . . There are a million and one reasons to object to Pelosi, but wearing the headscarf while in the mosque isn't one of them. It's akin to dressing appropriately while visiting a church, or a man wearing a yarmulke in a synagogue. It's something you do when you're a guest. It's not submission, it's respect.
I, too, looked through the entire Yahoo News photos slideshow to find a picture of Pelosi wearing the scarf outside the mosque, and there isn't any. Remember, she visited the tomb of John the Baptist, and made the sign of the cross. Before Vatican II all Catholic women covered their heads in church. I have zero problem with this and I think it hurts our credibility when we make a big stink over a non-issue and try to turn it into something it's not. Pelosi followed the same custom you and I would have done if we were in the same place. In fact, I think American women (myself included) dress far too immodestly in houses of worship. I was impressed when I visited Portugal, and saw young female tourists covering their shoulders before entering a church. So anyways, stick to hating Pelosi because she's an idiot.
1
A different version of the facts from the Reform Party of Syria:
http://tryingtogrok.mu.nu/archives/221714.html
Posted by: david foster at April 05, 2007 10:25 AM (VoCcd)
2
Annika,
Very reasonable. You had such a good upbringing so how come your politics got so twisted??
There are things that take place in these houses of worship that have made me a little queesy at times. If I am in a church for mass I stand when the congregation stands but i do not kneel when they kneel.
Posted by: strawman at April 05, 2007 11:26 AM (9ySL4)
3"how come your politics got so twisted??"Projecting much?
Posted by: reagan80 at April 05, 2007 01:29 PM (2A8p9)
4
She should have been criticized if she DIDN'T wear the headdress.
On a more substantial subject, I don't have any problem with Congressional fact-finding tours per se, nor do I have a problem with a Congressperson noting in the generic that yes, I play a role in the foreign policy of my country. Granted that this confuses some nations that are not used to separation of powers, but if our female government officials are going to wear headdresses in your country, you need to understand that our female government officials have to exercise Constitutional oversight in our country.
Posted by: Ontario Emperor at April 05, 2007 01:41 PM (P8ktI)
5
Raygun,
I don't know what I would do without you to point these things out to me. Many thanks.
Posted by: strawman at April 05, 2007 01:43 PM (9ySL4)
6
It's a cardinal rule that visitors respect the customs in someone else's country--even more important if you represent your country's government. Doesn't count against her.
Posted by: Joules at April 05, 2007 02:48 PM (u4CYb)
7
Nancy submissive? Are you nuts?
No one has ever accused her of being that...
Arrogant, naive, ballsy, rude,scary, confronational, any of these, but sumissive?
Never, never, never. (To paraphrase Winnie)
Posted by: shelly at April 05, 2007 03:21 PM (JQe3J)
8
The problem is not that she wore a hijab, it's the fact that she was in syria, a terrorist sponsoring state, trying to undermine the current administration.
Much like Kerry in the 70s, she's in violation of a little thing called the Logan Act.
§ 953. Private correspondence with foreign governments
Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply, himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects.
Posted by: Frank at April 06, 2007 07:20 AM (YHZAl)
9
I found you quite by accident, and admittedly, this is the first time I've read any remarks made by you, but I just wanted to say, You ALMOST had it right. ALMOST. "Frank" hit the nail on the head. I don't care what Ms. Pelosi wore, or how courteous and respectful she might have been. The only question Americans should be asking, including our Federal prosecutors, is WHAT IS SHE DOING THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Anyway, I'll drop in from time to time, you sound intersting. Chef
Posted by: Chef at April 06, 2007 10:11 AM (JMWr9)
10
Chef,
Unless if Annika comes up with her own "Hockey Chicken" campaign* to keep her from "retiring", you've only got until May 20th before this blog is put out of commission.
*such as meeting all of her Amazon wishlist demands ASAP!
Posted by: reagan80 at April 06, 2007 10:28 AM (I0gpu)
11
Reagan, it is a function of the stress of the California Bar Exam. You get one chance, every six (6) months to pass. The pressure is great and the exam lasts three days, eight hours a day.
Thus, I expect her to retire as planned, but, she says she'll occasionally post on something called "Six Meat Buffet", so we can all move over there, except for that one fool who will remain nameless.
Here's the link:
http://www.sixmeatbuffet.com/
Posted by: shelly at April 06, 2007 11:21 AM (JQe3J)
12
Thanks for clarifying that, Shelly.
Though in my case, there will be 2 fleas that I won't miss after the curtain finally comes down here.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 06, 2007 12:29 PM (I0gpu)
13
Shelly,
Now look what you've gone and done: given me the link.
You know Shelly, just because you don't like me and I don't like you doesn't mean we can't be friends. Some of my best friends are RW jellybean appointee's. Why just the other day, I was on Madison and 57th street and who should come strolling up the avenue?
Posted by: strawman at April 06, 2007 01:28 PM (9ySL4)
Truth Kook Caught On Video By Yours Truly
When I heard crazy Rosie O'Donald shooting off her ignorant bullshit about WTC Building 7, I was reminded of my trip to Ground Zero in July 2003.
As my friend and I walked around the site, we saw a guy standing next to a sign with a bunch of literature. He kept talking about how the WTC was really made up of seven buildings, not just the towers. I thought, "How nice, he's not political at all, he just wants to give people a little history while they tour the site." He kept repeating the exact times that the buildings came down with special emphasis on Building 7. I thought that was odd, but it wasn't until recently that I remembered him and realized that he was a friggin Truther, defiling the scene with his craziness.
On the video I shot, you can't really see him until the very end. In the last frame, I think he's to the right of center, half hidden behind the dude in the white shirt.
1
I had to watch it multiple times. It's like trying to analyze the Zapruder film.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 04, 2007 09:03 PM (I0gpu)
2
I guess I don't know what this is about. It reminds me of Louis Farrakhan and all the goofy stuff he said during his Million Man March speech. I had a conspiracy theorist carpet cleaner visit our house once. He showed me how you can fold a bill (can't remember if it was a $1 bill or what) so that the Twin Towers are clearly visible, "proving" that our government was involved in the incident. Whew! What do you say to that? Here's your money; you need it to pay your mental health bills.
Posted by: Joules at April 04, 2007 09:26 PM (u4CYb)
3
It's clearly the result of the ongoing meth epidemic. Tweekers are all nutjobs. The drug fries their brain. Coinkydink? I think not! Excepting Rosie of course, she's just an angry dyke.
This film is another Annikan ploy to boost her up the ladder of YouTube hits.
Posted by: Casca at April 04, 2007 10:50 PM (2gORp)
4
Annika,
Are you referring to the facts concerning the reasons building 7 came down although it was not actually hit very hard?
I thought it was a clearly understood by now that Rudy G. brought it down? Not that most people would put it that way,( but I, a Rudy denigrator do,) but it was his facility, (built on his watch and with his hand pushing it)that, once ignited, led to the total destruction of the building. So, it is only a stretch of a certain type to say that had it not been for Rudy's grandiosity, building 7 would still be standing.
The facility in question was the Office of Emergency Management. I know it well since the plans for the facility landed on my desk. A contractor who was bidding the entire project asked that I bid on the woodworking component. The set of drawings depicted a facility that was so over the top and, even to our woodworker's eyes, ill conceived that I had to be restrained by cooler heads from sending it off to the Daily News. I wanted to begin an investigation as to who was getting rich off of it and who was so dumb that they would place 5000 gallon diesel fuel tanks and generators on the 7th floor and the facility on the 23 floor with great views of the Hudson. Hurricane resistant shutters were proposed for the windows among a myriad of other brain dead ideas. Mostly though, after we laughed at the functional problems we laughed a different kind of laugh at the costly, extensive and totally frivolous woodwork that was called for. If this was supposed to be an emergency facility why did it need a Bubinga paneled conference room when painted sheetrock would have been perfectly reasonable? The rest of the job was quartered cherry, stained and lacquered; again, Formica would have been fine. The bid was nearly 300,000 dollars for a job that could have been done for less than50 thousand in wood working.
So, I don't know exactly what this fellow at GZ was pitching to you, but if this was it, he is correct: Some stupid Motherfker at city hall pushed a pet project of the mayor's and the not so unforeseen consequence was that it contributed to the destruction of the city rather than to the orderly recovery.
Posted by: strawman at April 05, 2007 07:00 AM (9ySL4)
5
Straw, I think the point is that some screwy folks believe the US government brought WTC 7 down with explosives. And (in one version of the Conspiracy Fantasy) that Giuliani was the one who gave the order (the dominant fantasy has the owner - Silverstein - ordering the Fire Department to set the explosives off, but there's a subset who believes it was Giuliani's order).
Anni, those dumbass fantasy dwellers have been hanging around Ground Zero quite a bit. Some of the other blogs - Screw Loose Change, etc - have members who occasionally go out to counter them when they're in the area. But it's hard to take time out of your life to fight obsessive stupidity, so it's not like there's someone to counter those folks every day. And yeah: "Defiling" is the proper term. "Desecrating" is another one I favor.
Whoops, back to Straw - Respectfully, minor, tiny nitpick: Saying WTC7 wasn't hit "very hard" may be a bit misleading. Engineers' opinions were that the damage from falling debris, as extensive as it was, by itself may not have been enough to bring the building down without the presence of the fires. So in a way, you're correct: It wasn't hit very hard in the sense that "hard" means "enough to bring the building down all by itself". But the damage was extensive enough to where the fires were able weaken everything else to the point of collapse. Sorry to nitpick, but there're folks out there who keep on insisting that the damage to WTC 7 wasn't bad at all, so only controlled demolition could account for it's fall. I wanted to draw the distinction between "not hard enough by itself to account for the collapse" and "hardly damaged at all". I know what you're saying, I'm merely clarifying for some others who may come along and stumble across this post and think "Hey, someone who believes in controlled demolition!"
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 05, 2007 11:22 AM (xHyDY)
6
Humono,
I don't disgree with any of what you say. I used "not hit too had" to mean as you say, not enough to collapse it but certainly plenty of damage. Without the diesel fuel fire it certainly would be standing until it went the way of the Deutch Bank building scheduled for demo due to contamination.
Posted by: strawman at April 05, 2007 01:40 PM (9ySL4)
7
The bottom 10 floors of WTC7 were severely damaged.
Posted by: Mark at April 06, 2007 08:51 AM (2MrBP)
8
True, Mark. Again, I'm trying to draw a distinction between "hit hard enough to fall from the act of being hit by debris alone" and "hardly damaged". Too many folks out there continue to insist that WTC 7 was "hardly damaged". While it may not have fallen without the fires (I need to soften the "wouldn't have" stance; will explain why in a minute), there was severe damage done; Fire Chief John Norman describes the edge of the south face as "heavily damaged", and also repored a "huge gaping hole" in that face.
Also: Going back over the testimony of the involved firefighters, I see that there were many battalion chiefs who judged that WTC 7 was going to fall, and a few of them don't attribute that suspicion to fire damage. Rather, they talk about structural damage alone. The last stuff I've read in debates have pretty much followed the NIST line that all the WTC buildings (1, 2, 7, and the others not involved in conspiracy fantasies) fell due to a combo of fire and damage, not one or the other alone. But going over the testimony I haven't read in months brings back to the fore that many firefighters were talking about impact damage, or effects from them, not fire weakening.
I need to review all that stuff again sometime soon. I'd forgotten that early testimony.
Also, Straw brings up the diesel tanks. I though they were in the basement myself (need to look that up again), but regardless, everyone knew they were there. Recorded testimony references the cut diesel lines which fed the fires for hours, and also records the fact that firemen were taken away from firefighting in order to concentrate on human rescue operations, thus explaining why they weren't ever put out. All this is ignored by the conspiracy fantasy pushers in favor of claiming "controlled demolition".
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 06, 2007 02:53 PM (J+r3D)
Capitulation Works
I suppose we should all be happy that the crisis over the kidnapped Royal Marines looks like it's coming to a peaceful end. But something doesn't feel right about the way this thing has turned out.
I mean, Britain was patrolling the Gulf for a reason, right? And whether the Marines were kidnapped outside of Iranian waters or inside, the Iranians have quite forcefully demonstrated their power to win a showdown, anytime, anywhere.
The British could have won this confrontation, gaining the marines' release, without showing the world what a bunch of groveling patsies they've become. But instead, they've given the world another reason for a false hope: that you can deal with the Iranians as long as you avoid making them mad.
And don't think I'm letting President Bush off lightly in my scorn. Sure he talked tough while it was the Brits in captivity. But this administration has done nothing except pusue diplomatic impotence, while the Iranians built more centrifuges, and yanked our chains. Where is the Iranian Lech Walensa? Where is the Iranian Solidarity movement? Does anyone think the Iron Curtain fell on its own? We pushed it over. Reagan pushed it over. The means he used weren't always open and obvious, but by this time in Reagan's second term, we could see the effects. I've been hearing about Iranian dissidents and how sick the people are of the mullahs for years now. If that's so true, we should be seeing some actual dissent over there, demonstrations, labor strikes. Again I ask, where are President Bush and Secretary Rice on this issue?
Great Britain just made the likelihood of eventual military confrontation between Iran and the West more likely. What are we doing to prevent it by toppling the dictatorship before that happens?
Update: A comment by Cruiser at The Belmont Club made the following very cogent point:
We always hear that acting aggressively towards Iran shores-up the hardliners. This is an good example of why the opposite can be true.
Update 2: In 2005, after the London bombings, I asked, "Where is this Britiain?" I'm now sure of the answer. It no longer exists. Blair has made a mockery of James Thomson's stirring poem, and it should never be sung again, except in sarcasm.
Yes the Britain of Lord Nelson is dead. And so is the Britain of Lord Churchill who, in 1940, said:
[B]e the ordeal sharp or long, or both, we shall seek no terms, we shall tolerate no parley; we may show mercy—we shall ask for none.
Yes, that Britain is dead as dead can be. Mourn it.
1
Wait... Anni, I don't get you here. The Iranian's are getting jack s*** for releasing the sailors. The most concrete thing they've received is a formal letter from Britan promising "not to violate Iranian waters". Which is pretty much akin to telling a fish not to swim out of water; the Brit's never violated Iranian territory, and saying they won't do so in the future is merely saying "continue on as before". In return, the British were able to keep negotiations private, wasn't forced to grovel, upstaged the UN for their US allies (anyone remember that the Brits were there under "UN" auspices?).
The Iranian's get to pat themselves on the back in the media with their condescending remarks about "proper" negotiating stances, but if that and the letter is all they get for releasing the sailors, they get practically nothing. They've not dissuaded the UN to reconsider the nuclear sanctions. They've definitely not gotten their "diplomats" (*cough*) from Irbil back. And they've proven to the US Navy that they're willing to take actions outside their own waters, which just provides the US Navy cover to be more aggressive about defending itself if approached by armed Iranians. If said Iranians try to pull this stunt now, on the US navy, they'll get a whole lot of gunfire in return, and the US will have a ready-made justification handed to them on a silver platter by the Iranians ("They captured the Brits before; that's why we were on such a high state of alert. Sorry about sinking their ships and killing their personnel, but they shouldn't have come at us with weapons. Next question...").
The Iranian's blew their wad and got nothing concrete in return. The most they can claim is a slight publicity victory, and even that's lame, given the fact the US is holding 300+ Iranians involved in combat in Iraq. They come off as hypocrites in crying about a handful of Brits in a peaceful area when they've been caught red-handed with so many of their own personnel assisting insurgents in combat areas.
I don't see how this is any sort of real victory for the Iranians. To me, they backed down before something bad was inflicted on them, and they're trying to cover their caving with talk of "gifts" to Britan and other condescensions. That's the attitude of a loser, not a winner.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 04, 2007 10:55 AM (J+r3D)
2
I don't think we can really draw parallels between the Cold War and the post Cold War. When Communism was run out of Eastern Europe, some (not all) of the countries DID become more democratic, more capitalistic, and more easily integratable into the world community. Yet the governments that have been overthrown in the Middle East have not followed the same script. The overthrow of the Shah in Iran led to the current regime, and the overthrow of Saddam Hussein is going to result in a dictatorship (or perhaps three separate dictatorships). And I can just imagine what would happen if the Saudi government were overthrown; I don't think we're going to get a multi-party, multi-religious haven of freedom if THAT happens. And don't even mention the overthrow of Rhodesia.
The successful transitions in Poland and South Africa resulted from (1) having a well-defined oppposition that was poised to take over, and (2) having a ruling government that was eventually willing to assist in the transition.
Posted by: Ontario Emperor at April 04, 2007 10:59 AM (Kkft8)
3
Just read ElMondo's comment, and I respectfully disagree. 25+ years ago, when the Iranians took hostages in the past, they were condemned as a rogue regime outside of the community of nations. They gain a TON of good PR in the world just by acting reasonably.
The next time there's a confrontation between the West and Iran, significant parts of the world will shout, "Hey, why are you picking on Iran? They let the sailors play chess and then released them. How can you call them a rogue regime, you fascist cowboys?"
Posted by: Ontario Emperor at April 04, 2007 11:03 AM (GT9eg)
4
Mondo, you're not one of those who thinks Israel "won" against Hezbollah last summer too?
Emperor, of course I'm not making a comparison to say that the situations are identical or that the same thing that happened in the 80's would work in Iran. For one thing, we had a polish pope back then, but there's no comparable guy who can influence Iranians religiously. But my point is that I am seeing nothing, NOTHING happening over there. As in Iraq, Bush is making the mistake of thinking he has all the time in the world. Pursue diplomacy, then if that don't work, go to the next step? Isolation? ooooh scary, isolation. as if they care. We should be multitasking this problem, especially since anybody with a brain knows the Iranians won't respond to diplomacy. They don't think we have anything to offer them worth negotiating for.
Posted by: annika at April 04, 2007 11:11 AM (zAOEU)
5
If anything the Iranians are practically being hailed as heroes for releasing hostages by the Left-wing MSM. Listening to CNN, you'd never know that the Iranians commited an act of war. And for that act, there was absolutely zero response. The European West is comprised of effete socialists who haven't the moral or physical courage to stand up for themselves. (But, hey, no worries they are really, really worried about "global warming." Gee, I feel safer already.)
And, I have to disagree with ElMondoHummus: the Iranians did win something here. First of all, they won big monetarily with the price of oil increasing during the stand-off. And they proved - yet again - that they can do anything they like and the West will piss itself out of fear before actually responding. They made the Brits and the West look like fools.
The Midget and the mullahs wins that round.
Posted by: blu at April 04, 2007 11:14 AM (Z0MKU)
6
Given the current rigime, war with Iran is inevitble. The question is where and when. I'd say over the Iraq/Iran border, because they will never stop meddling, sometime in the Guliani or Gingrich administration.
Posted by: Casca at April 04, 2007 12:25 PM (Y7t14)
Posted by: shelly at April 04, 2007 02:40 PM (JQe3J)
8"They gain a TON of good PR in the world just by acting reasonably."
In turn, respectfully disagree sir. First of all, they didn't act "reasonably"; threatening to charge a uniformed member of a nation's military with espionage, especially when carrying out a UN mission, is the furthest thing from being reasonable. And then suddenly letting them go without carrying through on the threat, but trumpeting how they could but they choose not to? That's the act of someone scared of keeping the sailors, not the act of someone confident they had the upper hand. If they were seriously concerned, they wouldn't have let them go for nothing. By turning them loose, they admitted how weak their hand was. Remember, they got no deflection from the UN sanctions, nor did they get the return of the supposed Irbil "diplomats" (expertise: Diplomatically training bombmakers). They got jack in return. And Great Britan didn't even threaten them with anything other than negotiations. England played their hand in a surprisingly weak, pissy way, and Iran still gave the sailors up. What does it say about Iran that they let the sailors go with no more than a finger-wag from the Brits?
"The next time there's a confrontation between the West and Iran, significant parts of the world will shout, "Hey, why are you picking on Iran? They let the sailors play chess and then released them. How can you call them a rogue regime, you fascist cowboys?""
Pffft... the idiots will say that anyway. Nothing that Iran does or does not do, or more pertinently, what Great Britan does or does not do, will change the idiot parade's predictable chant. Plus, I don't see them getting any more than an ounce of good PR from this. Everyone knows that right before the kidnappings, the UN sanctioned their nuke program. Who isn't going to put 2 and 2 together? Only the ones that wouldn't agree with the US or UK on anything anyway. Screw those guys. Everyone else sees the power play, and the attempt to deflect. Iran's being terribly transparent here.
I see what you're trying to say, Ontario, I just don't think it applies here.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 04, 2007 02:59 PM (xHyDY)
9
Anni: No, I don't, but the Israel/Hezbollah situation is entirely different. Both of them somehow managed to lose, which before last summer, I never would've thought was possible. Plus, international pressure and that UN deadline was what got Hez to stop shooting rockets and Israel to withdraw. Contrast that to Iran, which just unilaterally dumped off the sailors. They basically gave up without getting anything real in return.
Again, Britan played weak, but the Iranians somehow ended up playing weaker. They didn't even try to string the situation out. They just let the sailors go. That's not a power play.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 04, 2007 03:02 PM (xHyDY)
10
WHAT???!! Wait... whoa... this changes everything!:
http://formerspook.blogspot.com/2007/04/linkage.html"Another Iranian diplomat, captured in Baghdad two months ago, has apparently been released. At the time of his abduction, the diplomat's captors were described as "unifomed gunmen," although their identity was never officially disclosed. A senior Iraqi government official told the Associated Press that his country's intelligence service was holding the diplomat, who was set free this morning"
Okay, if the sailor release was a quid pro quo for releasing the "diplomat" (if anyone believes it's really a diplomat), then scratch everything I said. Because if the US released a prisoner for the British hostages, then the Iranian's did get something in return. And that does give them a victory.
And it's made me mad on top of that. If that is indeed related, then I'm steaming pissed. You never, never pay the Danegeld, because once you do, you never get rid of the Dane.
That better not be related. Else the US and GB were the ones doing the caving.
Anni, Ontario, Blu: If that link is accurate, I may have to hand this one to you guys. My whole argument was predicated on Iran getting nothing in return. This has the potential to undo that.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 04, 2007 03:23 PM (xHyDY)
11
looks like you found the Turkish missiles, Mondo.
Posted by: annika at April 04, 2007 03:47 PM (zAOEU)
12
Here is Iran's real objective: http://patdollard.com/2007/03/25/leverage/
Here is another take on it: http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/07/front2454186.013888889.html
And here is a little better summation of it all: http://patdollard.com/2007/04/04/told-you-so/
Posted by: Joatmoaf at April 04, 2007 04:10 PM (ls2Sh)
13
Annie:
Of course capitulation works;how else does any woman catch a man?
My father used to say "I chased her and chased her until she caught me".
Posted by: shelly at April 04, 2007 05:08 PM (JQe3J)
14Roach made an interesting entry on "Fourth Generation" Warfare, not long ago.
I also liked Glaivester's comment there:
As William Lind pointed out, there is a way for nation-states to defeat fourth generation warfare with second generation techniques (the nuke suggestion).
The problem, of course, is that second generation techniques and superior technology can only defeat fourth generation enemies by engaging in macro-terrorism (i.e. raze cities to the ground until everyone submits, and respond to "parallel structures" by savage retaliation [any soldier of ours killed, we will kill 1000 people in the area, including, if we can find who they are, the attackers' entire family]).
Hopefully, the West will only have to lose 25,000 more of its citizens in a single attack before getting pissed enough at the Muslim world to put Lind's remedies into action.
If there is a war against Iran, it better be a "scorched earth" campaign that would make Sherman proud. No more of this nation-building and peacekeeping bullshit for our troops. To Hell with them...
Posted by: reagan80 at April 04, 2007 08:06 PM (I0gpu)
15
As you know, Reagan, I've blogged several times on the fourth generation warfare problem. Your solution, while sounding attractive, is impractical because no civilized nation would threaten such a thing, and the plan doesn't work unless there's advanced notice. No, the only solution is to force the enemy into a conventional war, where we can master them. Or, as I have posited, and which is far more likely, to wait for the enemy to become so powerful that they make the mistake of taking us on in conventional warfare. Until then, despite the imbalance in power in our favor, we in the west will continue to grovel bow and scrape before our inferiors riding camels.
Posted by: annika at April 04, 2007 08:59 PM (WfR6S)
16
I figured Ahmagetajob wasn't going to do anything. No matter what they say, I don't think they're dumb enough to think they could do something to those soldiers without repercussions, especially when our military forces are right there in their neighborhood.
Posted by: Joules at April 04, 2007 09:32 PM (u4CYb)
17
Yes, I remember you mentioning 4GW before, and I probably posted the same Derb link then, as well.
"because no civilized nation would threaten such a thing"
I'm afraid you might be right about that, but I can still dream, can't I?
Another idea would be to outsource our war against Iran to the Chinese. After we topple the regime, tell the PLA that they can have complete control over Iran's oil reserves if only they'd supply the manpower to keep the locals and jihadists in check(Tiananmen-style, if necessary) on our behalf. We'd even provide them the logistics support and air/sea transportation to get their troops into the theater.
The Chi-Coms would get their oil and lebensraum while we can wash our hands of Iran after stopping their nuclear program. Our troops wouldn't be dying from a post-invasion occupation and the Chinese won't care about suffering casualties since they want to control their own population's growth anyway(via mandatory abortions). Another fringe benefit of this expedition would include giving Chinese men a chance to find a woman.
Sure, I might be channeling General Ripper now, but it won't sound so crazy as time goes on.
Posted by: reagan80 at April 04, 2007 10:38 PM (I0gpu)
18
Shit, is Bill Lind still alive?
So how do you think that Sharafi fellow liked the waterboard? If we sent him back, we must have turned him. If we didn't turn him, we'll make them think that we did, mwahahahaha, win-win.
Posted by: Casca at April 04, 2007 11:04 PM (2gORp)
19
Anni, I agree completely with your implied strategic and tactical recommendation, which you've mentioned in the past as well.
Posted by: will at April 05, 2007 04:56 AM (GzvlQ)
20
I don't think I disagree with anything you have to say, Anni, except that Winston never actually got around to accepting a peerage (he was supposedly leaning towards taking the title Duke of London).
Posted by: Leif at April 05, 2007 08:28 AM (n7rBV)
21
Still steaming... that better not have been related.
But I'm not finding anything to the contrary. Which pisses me off. There's no reason to negotiate with thuggery.
Posted by: ElMondoHummus at April 05, 2007 11:25 AM (xHyDY)
22
On the 25th anniversary of the Falklands Islands recapture.. interesting contrast for the Royal Navy...
Posted by: Col Steve at April 06, 2007 12:12 PM (WffUy)
23
They got lucky in the Falklands. If the Argies had any starch in their shorts at all, they'd have kicked the Brits collective ass. A great example of how leadership and morale can carry the day. The weaker force had it. The Argies... not so much.
It's dismaying to hear a Royal Marine Captain explain how he folded his hand instead of holding his bluff. We'll have to see how the next hand gets played.
Posted by: Casca at April 06, 2007 11:59 PM (2gORp)
McCain Loses First Primary
John McCain just lost his first primary this season: the "fundraising primary."
Sen. John McCain today announced a disappointing $12.5 million fundraising total for the first three months of 2007.
The total, which would have been impressive in past election cycles, finds McCain trailing GOP rivals Mitt Romney and Rudolph Giuliani in the crucial early money sweepstakes.
Romney, the former Massachusetts governor who has struggled in the national polls, reported $23 million in primary election contributions, including more than $2 million of his own money. The Federal Election Commission allows candidates to collect money for their primary and general election campaigns simultaneously.
Giuliani, the Republican frontrunner in national surveys, took in more than $15 million in primary cash, including more than $10 million last month. He also transferred about $2 million from another campaign account for a total of $17 million.
This is not good news for McCain, but it's good news for America.
Memo to Senator McCain: The mainstream media is not a constituency. You pissed off the wrong people with your Gang of 14 - anti-free speech - dumbing down the definition of "torture" - Democrats are people too, views. Money flows to candidates that can win the nomination. You can't win. It's time to leave the field to Giuliani and Romney and stop sucking up attention that should be going to the legitimate candidates.
1
Seconded, except for the get out of the race stuff. His comments in support of the war are helpful, and while he's running, he's trying to say nice things to us.
Posted by: Casca at April 02, 2007 01:41 PM (Y7t14)
2
Thirded. As far as I'm concerned, Romney is the ONLY viable candidate for the GOP right now.
Posted by: Dan at April 02, 2007 02:32 PM (IHDHe)
3
I wonder if Romney believes that he is going to be in charge of his own planet someday, making celestial babies with his wife for all eternity (a Mormon belief). Kind of makes it hard to vote for him if he's a devout Mormon.
Posted by: Joules at April 02, 2007 04:40 PM (u4CYb)
4
Romney is a nobody. A somebody always beats a nobody. He won't be the candidate.
Posted by: Casca at April 02, 2007 09:15 PM (2gORp)
5
Don't ALL politicians believe that they're rulers of their own planets? I wouldn't hold that against Romney. Frankly I haven't really investigated him (other than hearing noises about his supposed flip-flops). Then again, I'll probably investigate Ron Paul and Tom Tancredo before I look at the other ones...
Posted by: Ontario Emperor at April 02, 2007 09:27 PM (P8ktI)
6
Still very early in the contest and more entrants are walking through the door (more to adjust tenor of the debate, no doubt). McCain's moderate supporters wince at his support of Bush, while the conservative crowd reviles his wont of the center. Watch for a spoiler...
Posted by: will at April 03, 2007 04:50 AM (GzvlQ)
7
Way, way too early to talk about anything substantial. The money is important, but Mitt had a spurt and John was asleep. Let's look again in a few months.
Meanwhile, don't forget to vote in Annie's polls, especially the one about Florida's Bitches.
I hear their are changing their color to pink and calling themselves "Big Pink".
Posted by: shelly at April 03, 2007 07:04 PM (JQe3J)